Making Baby Jesus Cry

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
how do you know he was wrong? All dems wait until a building is rubble and hundreds are dead before they ID a threat?

Thousands.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I asked you about Bush's mistake -- of judgment, I would say, but you call it a question of faith here -- and, tellingly, you'd rather talk about Clinton. Who gives a fuck? Bush went to war because he thought -- or he said -- Hussein posed a threat to us, and he was wrong. Very, very wrong.

Ty, Clinton said, if he didnt have them, he would get them. Other intelligence corroborated that warning from the husband of the world's most intelligent woman. How can you deny this?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Have your guys apologized for making that shit up?

Cite please?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Thousands.

Dissent:

the barracks bombing in SA and the embassy bombings which clinton ignored only killed hundreds.
The first WTC attack and the attack on the cole that clinton ignored killed less than 100.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
how do you know he was wrong? All dems wait until a building is rubble and hundreds are dead before they ID a threat?

Is it so hard for you to grasp that THERE WERE NO WMD? Is it really that hard? Hussein wasn't a threat to Turkey, let alone to us.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Ty, Clinton said, if he didnt have them, he would get them. Other intelligence corroborated that warning from the husband of the world's most intelligent woman. How can you deny this?

I don't deny that Clinton said it. I don't care. That was many years ago. Hussein used to have WMD. The sanctions worked. Containment worked. The air strikes worked. He ended his program. When we invaded, THERE WERE NO WMD. I swear to God, it's no wonder that Iraq is a clusterfuck because the whole conservative movement is built on pretending that reality is whatever Fox News says it is instead of dealing with what's actually happening.

Clinton's policy was containment. It worked to defend the U.S. against Iraq. Very few Americans died, and we kept Hussein from being a threat.

Bush had no patience for this. It now turns out that his policy was based on a fundamental misjudgement about what Hussein was up to. Bush has spent a collosal amount of money and lives because he got this wrong. And you guys are in denial.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Is it so hard for you to grasp that THERE WERE NO WMD? Is it really that hard?

Yes.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't deny that Clinton said it. I don't care. That was many years ago. Hussein used to have WMD. The sanctions worked. Containment worked. The air strikes worked. He ended his program. When we invaded, THERE WERE NO WMD. I swear to God, it's no wonder that Iraq is a clusterfuck because the whole conservative movement is built on pretending that reality is whatever Fox News says it is instead of dealing with what's actually happening.

Clinton's policy was containment. It worked to defend the U.S. against Iraq. Very few Americans died, and we kept Hussein from being a threat.

Bush had no patience for this. It now turns out that his policy was based on a fundamental misjudgement about what Hussein was up to. Bush has spent a collosal amount of money and lives because he got this wrong. And you guys are in denial.

I think it is you who are in denial my friend. ,Clinton's policies failed, which is why Hussein remained a threat, despite the fact that Clinton had 8 years to deal with him and actually identified him, correctly, as a major threat. As Clinton said, even if he doesnt have the weapons, we know he once did, he has the capactity to regain them, and he has used them and thus, until he is removed, he is a major threat to the US. His message is clear., There are a lot of things I disagree with Clinton on, but on this issue I give him high marks for clarity of vision and analysis. Too bad he dropped the ball on execution and further, let Gorelick build a wall that prevented us from stopping Hussein;s pal, atta, before he killed 3000 Americans. Hank, please add those bodies to the tally attributable to Clinton.

Also, the missing "w" keys, that is just petty.

[Penske_Account]

Will there ever be a day when the democrats, either in the form of their leaders or followers, can (1) accept responsibility for their mistakes and the consequences of the same; and (2) apologize, sincerely, to the American public for the same?

I'm not holding my breath, but it would sure be a refreshing, once in a lifetime occurence.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
I think it is you who are in denial my friend. ,Clinton's policies failed, which is why Hussein remained a threat, despite the fact that Clinton had 8 years to deal with him and actually identified him, correctly, as a major threat.

Threat to do what? Wave his shotgun at us on TV? He had no weapons to use against us. Nothing. France is more of a threat -- they don't like us either, and they actually have nuclear weapons. North Korea was more of a threat. Iran was more of a threat. Pakistan was more of a threat. Russia was more of a threat. We now know that Iraq simply was not a threat. With the forces we had in Kuwait, Iraq wasn't a threat to Kuwait, let alone Kentucky. Clinton dealt with him appropriately, through containment.

Guess what? The federal government is going to hit us all for $200 billion or so in taxes because Bush guessed wrong.

As Clinton said, even if he doesnt have the weapons, we know he once did, he has the capactity to regain them, and he has used them and thus, until he is removed, he is a major threat to the US. His message is clear.,

If Clinton had said this when the war started -- and maybe he did, but I doubt it -- he'd have been wrong. If Bush had let the inspectors keep looking, we all would have learned that there were no WMD, and there was no threat. The sanctions worked to prevent him from continuing those programs.

Also, the missing "w" keys, that is just petty.

You brought it up; I agree. Plus, it was a bogus story.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Threat to do what?

To continue to pursue WMDs, assuming he did not have them, whcih I don't. Continue to destabilize the middle east. Continue to threaten Israels security by paying each homicide bomber's family $25K. Engage in the ongoing facilitation and support of international terrorism, whether it was by meeting and offering aid to Al Qaeda reps or by playing host to Abu Nidal, one of the most dangerous men in the world.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
France is more of a threat -- they don't like us either, and they actually have nuclear weapons. North Korea was more of a threat. Iran was more of a threat. Pakistan was more of a threat. Russia was more of a threat.

G.

I would be up for attacking France, North Korea and Iran, although we should just go the efficient route and use nukes on those chaps.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Guess what? The federal government is going to hit us all for $200 billion or so in taxes because Bush guessed wrong.

I don't see it. The economy is humming. We will continue to grow out of the deficit. A few more tax cuts will add to the growth and eventually the Iraqi will bear dividends.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If Clinton had said this when the war started -- and maybe he did, but I doubt it -- he'd have been wrong. If Bush had let the inspectors keep looking, we all would have learned that there were no WMD, and there was no threat. The sanctions worked to prevent him from continuing those programs.

Saddam thwarted the inspectors, that's the problem. the UN has teeth, 12 years of the inspection regime proved it. In the shadow of 911 we couldnt afford another 12 years of weak policy. Bush made the hard decisions a leader has to make. An d in return, our shores have been safe and secure since 911.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You brought it up; I agree. Plus, it was a bogus story.

cite please?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
To continue to pursue WMDs, assuming he did not have them, whcih I don't.

You don't have to assume it. Just read Kay's final report. Plenty of other countries are pursuing or have WMD, and they are not a threat to us warranting an invasion. Hussein posed no imminent threat in this way.

Continue to destabilize the middle east.

It's funny to hear a proponent of the invasion say this. I mean, WTF do you think we're doing there right now? Hussein's Iraq was an island of stability compared to what's going on now.

Continue to threaten Israels security by paying each homicide bomber's family $25K.

Please don't pretend that this did or should have anything to do with our invasion. Money for this comes from plenty of other places in the Middle East, including our putative allies.

Engage in the ongoing facilitation and support of international terrorism, whether it was by meeting and offering aid to Al Qaeda reps or by playing host to Abu Nidal, one of the most dangerous men in the world.

The alleged ties with AQ just didn't pan out. That was some scary-ass shit a couple of years ago, but we all know it's bogus now. (Oh yeah, I forgot, you're living in 2003 and refusing to acknowledge facts since then.) In this respect, Hussein may have bothered Israel, but he was no threat to us. Compare, e.g., the Taliban.

I would be up for attacking France, North Korea and Iran, although we should just go the efficient route and use nukes on those chaps.

You're welcome for the softball.

I don't see it. The economy is humming. We will continue to grow out of the deficit. A few more tax cuts will add to the growth and eventually the Iraqi will bear dividends.

That's like saying, I'm making a lot of money this year, so buying the Maserati really isn't going to cost me anything. Fortunately, you don't believe it either.

Saddam thwarted the inspectors, that's the problem. the UN has teeth, 12 years of the inspection regime proved it. In the shadow of 911 we couldnt afford another 12 years of weak policy. Bush made the hard decisions a leader has to make. An d in return, our shores have been safe and secure since 911.

Bush made the hard decision -- I don't think it was that hard for him, really -- to thwart the inspectors before they were done so we could start the bombing. Saddam let them in -- we told them to leave. And we now know that if they had searched the country from top to bottom, they would not have found WMD.

cite please?

I'll see if I can find it. Can you find any support for the story apart from the unsubstantiated say-so of a few political types in the new administration?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
cite please?

From the Kansas City Star, May 18, 2001:

• No Truth in Clinton White House Vandal Scandal, GSA Reports
  by David Goldstein
  
  WASHINGTON -- The General Services Administration has found that the White House vandalism flap earlier this year was a flop.
  
  The agency concluded that departing members of the Clinton administration had not trashed the place during the presidential transition, as unidentified aides to President Bush and other critics had insisted.
  
  Responding to a request from Rep. Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican, who asked for an investigation, the GSA found that nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.
  
  "The condition of the real property was consistent with what we would expect to encounter when tenants vacate office space after an extended occupancy," according to a GSA statement.
  
  No wholesale slashing of cords to computers, copiers and telephones, no evidence of lewd graffiti or pornographic images. GSA didn't bother to nail down reports of pranks, which were more puckish than destructive.
  
  Among those pranks was the apparent removal, by aides to former President Bill Clinton, of the "w" key from some computer keyboards and the placing of official-looking signs on doors, saying things like "Office of Strategery," after a popular "Saturday Night Live" spoof on Bush.
  
  But the vandal scandal, tales of torn up offices and items stolen from the presidential jet, was the hottest story in town during the early days of the Bush administration until White House furniture and last-minute pardons pushed it off the front page.
  
  "I think it was this calculated effort to plant a damaging story," said Alex S. Jones, director of the Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University. "There was a sort of fertile ground for believing anything bad."
  
  Typical was Tony Snow, a syndicated columnist and former presidential speech writer for President Bush's father, who wrote that the White House "was a wreck." He also said that Air Force One, after taking Clinton and some aides to New York following the inauguration, "looked as if it had been stripped by a skilled band of thieves -- or perhaps wrecked by a trailer park twister."
  
  He went on to list all manner of missing items, including silverware, porcelain dishes with the presidential seal and even candy.
  
  "It makes one feel grateful that the seats and carpets are bolted down," Snow fumed.
  
  Except none of it happened. An official at Andrews Air Force Base, which maintains the presidential jets, told The Kansas City Star at the height of the controversy that nothing was missing. Bush himself acknowledged the same a few days later.
  
  And now GSA has made it official.
  
  "They told me that there were papers that were not organized lying on the floor and on desks; there were some scratches here and there, but the bottom line was they didn't see anything really in their view that was significant and that would appear to some as real extensive damage," said Bernard Unger, director for physical infrastructure for the General Accounting Office, which asked GSA to look into the allegations.
  
  Mark Lindsay, who oversaw the transition as Clinton's assistant for management and administration, said he was pleased that the record has been set straight.
  
  "Because of President Clinton, this was one of the smoothest transitions in the history of the presidency," he said. "This was nothing more than just lies."
  
  As for the critics, Barr's office didn't return calls about the GSA findings. Snow was somewhat contrite. "I'm perfectly willing to admit my error on the aircraft," he said, but added that he still believed his sources who told him about damage at the White House.
  
  "What often happens in Washington is gossip becomes news. That's not a good thing."

[pony_trekker]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Will there ever be a day when the democrats, either in the form of their leaders or followers, can (1) accept responsibility for their mistakes and the consequences of the same; and (2) apologize, sincerely, to the American public for the same?

I'm not holding my breath, but it would sure be a refreshing, once in a lifetime occurence.

You first. Wait, right the right doesn't make mistakes. It's all the democrats' fault too.

Rush's drug addiction is simehow Clinton's fault, I forgot,. Iraq is Clinton's fault, I forgot. Record oil co profits at the expense of the middle class -- Clinton's fault too. Economy in the shitter -- Clinton's fault too. George Bush's skipping the draft and coke addicition -- Clinton's fault too.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
From the Kansas City Star, May 18, 2001:

• No Truth in Clinton White House Vandal Scandal, GSA Reports
  by David Goldstein
  
  WASHINGTON -- The General Services Administration has found that the White House vandalism flap earlier this year was a flop.
  
  The agency concluded that departing members of the Clinton administration had not trashed the place during the presidential transition, as unidentified aides to President Bush and other critics had insisted.
  
  Responding to a request from Rep. Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican, who asked for an investigation, the GSA found that nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.
  
  "The condition of the real property was consistent with what we would expect to encounter when tenants vacate office space after an extended occupancy," according to a GSA statement.
  
  No wholesale slashing of cords to computers, copiers and telephones, no evidence of lewd graffiti or pornographic images. GSA didn't bother to nail down reports of pranks, which were more puckish than destructive.
  
  Among those pranks was the apparent removal, by aides to former President Bill Clinton, of the "w" key from some computer keyboards and the placing of official-looking signs on doors, saying things like "Office of Strategery," after a popular "Saturday Night Live" spoof on Bush.
  
  But the vandal scandal, tales of torn up offices and items stolen from the presidential jet, was the hottest story in town during the early days of the Bush administration until White House furniture and last-minute pardons pushed it off the front page.
  
  "I think it was this calculated effort to plant a damaging story," said Alex S. Jones, director of the Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University. "There was a sort of fertile ground for believing anything bad."
  
  Typical was Tony Snow, a syndicated columnist and former presidential speech writer for President Bush's father, who wrote that the White House "was a wreck." He also said that Air Force One, after taking Clinton and some aides to New York following the inauguration, "looked as if it had been stripped by a skilled band of thieves -- or perhaps wrecked by a trailer park twister."
  
  He went on to list all manner of missing items, including silverware, porcelain dishes with the presidential seal and even candy.
  
  "It makes one feel grateful that the seats and carpets are bolted down," Snow fumed.
  
  Except none of it happened. An official at Andrews Air Force Base, which maintains the presidential jets, told The Kansas City Star at the height of the controversy that nothing was missing. Bush himself acknowledged the same a few days later.
  
  And now GSA has made it official.
  
  "They told me that there were papers that were not organized lying on the floor and on desks; there were some scratches here and there, but the bottom line was they didn't see anything really in their view that was significant and that would appear to some as real extensive damage," said Bernard Unger, director for physical infrastructure for the General Accounting Office, which asked GSA to look into the allegations.
  
  Mark Lindsay, who oversaw the transition as Clinton's assistant for management and administration, said he was pleased that the record has been set straight.
  
  "Because of President Clinton, this was one of the smoothest transitions in the history of the presidency," he said. "This was nothing more than just lies."
  
  As for the critics, Barr's office didn't return calls about the GSA findings. Snow was somewhat contrite. "I'm perfectly willing to admit my error on the aircraft," he said, but added that he still believed his sources who told him about damage at the White House.
  
  "What often happens in Washington is gossip becomes news. That's not a good thing."

Ty, this implies the missing "w"s story is true, doesn't it?