Making Baby Jesus Cry

[pony_trekker]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I had forgotten that you are a big fan of the snail darter.

I understand that many of you will never forgive FDR for introducing socialism. What I don't understand is the rogue meme about FDR and our entry into World War II. (I recall that Penske is bent out of shape that FDR said he wouldn't lead us into the war, and thinks that FDR's failure to immediately surrender to Germany on December 8, 1941 makes him a liar. Whatever.) The thought seems to be, Democrats think FDR is a great president, and FDR was president when we went to war, and W. was a president when we went to war, so therefore even Democrats should admit that W. is a great president. Anyone who got a good enough score on the LSAT to get into law school should be able to see what's wrong with this reasoning, which is probably why you guys keep hinting at it instead of just saying it outright.

Actually, I will never forgive him for failing to go as far as the Europeans.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Anyone who got a good enough score on the LSAT to get into law school should be able to see what's wrong with this reasoning,

Democrats aren't capable of independant thought and their leaders would never tell them to think W is a good president?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Spanky
As usual you have totally missed the point. We (or at least) I don't blame FDR for manipulating us into WWII. I think it was a good thing. But we find it hypocritical that you get all up in arms for Bush allegedly lying to get us into war when that is exactly what FDR did. From documents and memos from his administration it was clear before the 1940 election FDR was really worried about Hitler and wanted to help England but most Americans, being encouraged by Lindberg and Kennedy, didn't want any part of it. FDR, in the election of 1940 promised to do everything in his power to keep us out of the war in Europe. And then he did everything he could to get us involved. Even though we were neutral Roosevelt had U.S. destroyers escort U.S. and British cargo ships that were bringing ammunition to England. They escorted these ships half way across the Atlantic and if any German U boat showed up we fired on it.

We pretty much gave an entire fleet of old destroyers to England. We did get to lease some bases we did not need, but England got supplies that were clearly critical to the war effort. Right after he was elected he instituted the largest peacetime draft in US history and jacked up military spending immediately in preparation for war.

And he had strategy meetings with Churchill all time. He pretty much made us an alley of Great Britain in everything but name. If FDR had not used US destroyers to protect British shipping, had not done the Lend Lease act, and sold goods to any ship that showed up at a US port - as a true neutral should - Germany probably would have not declared war on us.

But when FDR in the 1940 campaign said that he would do everything in his power to keep our sons and daughters at home, he knew was going to do the opposite. In other words he lied. But I for one am glad that he did. If he hadn't done what he did we might all be speaking German right now.

Roosevelt definitely lied.

Also interesting is that Joe Kennedy was a Nazi sympathizer and his last living son is an al Qaeda sympathizer. Now that the Kennedys have lots of money (from illegal sources at its foundation) wouldn't they be happier back in Ireland, instead of here hating America by supporting those who seek to destroy our way of life?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Democrats aren't capable of independant thought and their leaders would never tell them to think W is a good president?

2.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Gattigap
My WWII history is severely lacking, so I'll defer to the rest of you historians on this -- but if the trigger to our jumping into the war as an active participant was Pearl Harbor, then wouldn't the rest of the actions you describe above be characterized as secretive support of Britain instead of the "opposite" of keeping our sons and daughters at home?

I don't think they were very secret. The Germans knew all about these activities and they were the ones that really counted. I think FDR was trying to provoke the Nazis into sinking our ships and eventually the US public would get so angry they would cry for war (and as SHP pointed out it was working). Or the Nazis would get so peeved that they would declare war. However, the public mood wasn't changing. I don't think FDR or anyone else really believed the Japanese would really attack us. We just didn't consider them that much of a threat.

Roosevelt just got lucky when Hitler declared was on us on December 8, 1945. I think Hitler thought we were going to be so caught up with the Japanese we would not be able to focus on him. He was very mistaken. If the war was all about revenge for Pearl Harbor our strategy did not show it. We devoted EIGHTY PERCENT OF OUR RESOURCES ON THE EUROPEAN THEATER AND ONLY TWENTY PERCENT ON THE PACIFIC THEATER. This policy decision, besides making Macarthur and Chang Kai Scheck apoplectic, showed that our goal was always Europe. FDR, and Marshall, just used Pearl Harbor and the declaration of war, as an excuse to get Hitler out of the way. Which by the way was the right choice. I have a lot of respect for Macarthur but he was wrong on this one.

[SlaveNoMore]

Spanky
As usual you have totally missed the point. We (or at least) I don't blame FDR for manipulating us into WWII. I think it was a good thing. But we find it hypocritical that you get all up in arms for Bush allegedly lying to get us into war when that is exactly what FDR did....

And although Bush has been called a "fascist", a "dictator" and the like, wasn't it FDR who:

1) Threatened to destroy the judicial branch by "packing" the Supreme Court

2) Broke 150 years of executive precedent by running for four terms

and etc.

[Guy Smiley]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
We tried that once. Everyone wanted to be Oscar.

Au contraire

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
And although Bush has been called a "fascist", a "dictator" and the like, wasn't it FDR who:

1) Threatened to destroy the judicial branch by "packing" the Supreme Court

2) Broke 150 years of executive precedent by running for four terms

and etc.

could you imagine the liberal outcry if W tried a court packing manuever?

[Penske_Account]

The grieving mother says "It got out of hand and just turned into a media circus.”




Ad for a rally at SanFranStateU that Sheehan spoke at in May. How is this not treasonous? How sad that this is taxpayer supported. Spanky can't you get Arnold to do something about this.

[Penske_Account]

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Penske_Account

You can be a real asshole sometimes.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
You can be a real asshole sometimes.

I didn't realize that you were such a big Bob Denver fan.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Ad for a rally at SanFranStateU that Sheehan spoke at in May. How is this not treasonous? How sad that this is taxpayer supported. Spanky can't you get Arnold to do something about this.

[IMG]

He doesn't listen to me. His office just complains to me and tells me to fix things. For some reason they feel this press release is somehow my fault and I am supposed to fix it. I don't know why his office thinks these people will listen to me but I will give it the old college try.

Here is what they are angry about:

Convicted pedophiles part of Arnold-endorsed event

Governor praises 'gay pride' festival that has sex offenders as volunteers


July 7, 2005
WorldNetDaily.com

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is taking heat on the Internet for endorsing San Diego's "gay pride" celebration slated for later this month, with critics pointing out two of the men helping to stage the event are convicted pedophiles.

In his letter of greeting to all who will gather July 29 for the homosexual-themed parade and festival, Schwarzenegger writes, "I am pleased to extend warm greetings to all who have gathered for this year's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Celebrations.

"California is proud to host events that celebrate diversity and support active civic participation. I applaud your efforts to foster ties within your community and to promote cultural and social acceptance in our Golden State. …

"Your efforts serve to raise awareness and advocate civil rights for all individuals, regardless of sexual orientation."

While this was not the first time the governor has commended a homosexual event in the Golden State, it is the presence of two convicted pedophiles on the event's volunteer staff that has traditional-values advocates upset.

On page 47 and 48 of the "gay pride" event's program, which is viewable online, two members of the staff are listed – both of whom also appear on California's Megan's Law website as convicted pedophiles.

Warren Patrick Derichsweiler was convicted of "lewd or lascivious acts with a child under 14 years with force," according to the government website, and Daniel Reiger is listed as having committed "oral copulation with a person under 16 years."

"There is simply no excuse for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to honor an event that is using dangerous pedophiles," stated the James Hartline Report e-mail newsletter, which first discovered the background of Derichsweiler and Reiger.

The same newsletter pointed out that at the San Diego event, "young people will be exposed to a multitude of pornographic images and S&M leather products as they walk around the gay pride festival."

Freelance reporter Allyson Smith, who is based in San Diego, says a staffer for the governor told her the chief executive "supports gay and lesbian rights and that he does not have time to check out the backgrounds of every single person involved with every pride event in the state of California."

Said Smith: "I told [the staff member] it is reprehensible that Schwarzenegger, a professed Catholic and so-called Republican, would put the special rights of perverts above the protection of innocent children."

WND was unable to reach a Schwarzenegger spokesperson by press time.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
I didn't realize that you were such a big Bob Denver fan.

Annie's Song? Take me home, country roads?

Who isn't?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
As usual you have totally missed the point. We (or at least) I don't blame FDR for manipulating us into WWII. I think it was a good thing. But we find it hypocritical that you get all up in arms for Bush allegedly lying to get us into war when that is exactly what FDR did. From documents and memos from his administration it was clear before the 1940 election FDR was really worried about Hitler and wanted to help England but most Americans, being encouraged by Lindberg and Kennedy, didn't want any part of it. FDR, in the election of 1940 promised to do everything in his power to keep us out of the war in Europe. And then he did everything he could to get us involved. Even though we were neutral Roosevelt had U.S. destroyers escort U.S. and British cargo ships that were bringing ammunition to England. They escorted these ships half way across the Atlantic and if any German U boat showed up we fired on it.

We pretty much gave an entire fleet of old destroyers to England. We did get to lease some bases we did not need, but England got supplies that were clearly critical to the war effort. Right after he was elected he instituted the largest peacetime draft in US history and jacked up military spending immediately in preparation for war.

And he had strategy meetings with Churchill all time. He pretty much made us an alley of Great Britain in everything but name. If FDR had not used US destroyers to protect British shipping, had not done the Lend Lease act, and sold goods to any ship that showed up at a US port - as a true neutral should - Germany probably would have not declared war on us.

But when FDR in the 1940 campaign said that he would do everything in his power to keep our sons and daughters at home, he knew was going to do the opposite. In other words he lied. But I for one am glad that he did. If he hadn't done what he did we might all be speaking German right now.

Implicit in your diatribe here is some belief that I have smiled upon whatever misstatements FDR may have made. I don't think I ever said that, so you are wasting a lot of effort. But I also don't think that the single sentence that Penske dug up carries the weight that you two are trying to put on it. E.g., I can easily imagine that FDR said that it would be a catastrophe for the nation if all of Europe were to succumb to Nazi Germany, but that he also would do all he could to stay out of the war. If so, I think any listener would have understood that he was both trying to assist Britain and keep out of the war. And in light of what actually happened -- that we assisted Britain, and ended up in the war only when attacked by Japan -- if he said that, you'd have no complaint.

So, I'm willing to believe that FDR lied to the public and should be condemned for it, but before I accept that it happened, I need to see more than a single sentence pulled from a 1940 speech.

Meanwhile, I don't understand how you can accuse FDR of lying -- and me of hypocrisy -- on so slender a basis while absolving the current administration of everything. Have you read the 1940 speech that Penske was quoting? Do you know what FDR was saying to people? If you're willing to conclude that FDR lied on the basis of what's above, that looks an awful lot like a double standard. I'm willing to accept that FDR might have done something wrong, so why are you an apologist for W.?