The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Perhaps you should read what I was replying to, and which I had already answered (twice). Apparently, spanky doesn't read my answers. Or he's willfully obtuse on this issue.

Well, in defense, we were speaking of McCarthy, and not the general red-scare. There was plenty of red-scare independent of McCarthy. He just capitalized upon it. In a conversation alternately excoriating and sanctifying McCarthy, I think Faulk lies outside.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by bilmore
Well, in defense, we were speaking of McCarthy, and not the general red-scare. There was plenty of red-scare independent of McCarthy. He just capitalized upon it. In a conversation alternately excoriating and sanctifying McCarthy, I think Faulk lies outside.

2. I was looking for someone who had been falsly accused by McCarthy. Faulk is not such a person.

Faulk is a person that in general was accused of being a communist by a nongovernment entity.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by bilmore
Well, in defense, we were speaking of McCarthy, and not the general red-scare. There was plenty of red-scare independent of McCarthy. He just capitalized upon it. In a conversation alternately excoriating and sanctifying McCarthy, I think Faulk lies outside.

Perhaps, but in the actual conversation we were having (about a lack of sympathy for communists who lost their jobs due to the red-scare during the time period), Faulk is relevant.

Others are too, I'm sure. I just happened to read Nizer's "The Jury Returns" not too long ago, so Faulk is on my mind.

That being said, I am done with McCarthy. No, really.

eta: "My last one" -- hahahahahahahaha! I'm such a kidder. It's my penultimate one, though. Scout's honor.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Spanky
2. I was looking for someone who had been falsly accused by McCarthy. Faulk is not such a person.

Faulk is a person that in general was accused of being a communist by a nongovernment entity.

So, is he the answer to this question?

• As I stated before, if someone said that they had made a mistake, and didn't support the communist party then it would be wrong if they got fired. Do you have an actual example of this?

We can agree to disagree on Fred Fisher, I suppose. And on Acheson, Truman, Marshall, FDR, et al (who were all accused by McCarthy of actively covering up the communist infiltration of the government).

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Spanky
Just like being called a racist carries a certain social stigma today. Today if you are called a racist then you just deny it. If someone calls you a racist, or shows that you have relations with racist organizations, this is not questioned. You just simply deny you are a racist.

Sure. That's worked for all the members of golf clubs that have come under fire. Did Augusta National terminate advertising because the sponsors decided to back out? No, it was because they were worried that the club's membership policies would taint the sponsors.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Bob
And on Acheson, Truman, Marshall, FDR, et al (who were all accused by McCarthy of actively covering up the communist infiltration of the government).

Well, not to protect communists, but because the number of people implicated under them was making them look pretty bad.

IIRC.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
Boy you are slow. I did not say they were committing treason by being a member of the communist party. However, if they did take funds from the Soviet Union to spy on the United States, which almost the entire leadership of the communist party did, or if I take any affirmative steps to overthrow the government, then yes that is treason.

You can be a part of a group that wants to overthrow the government, just like you can talk about murdering someone. Nothing illegal. But the minute you go out and attempt to murder someone, or attempt the violent overthrow of the US government, then that is a crime.

Someone who wants to overthrow the US government, or end our democracy is an enemy of the state. You make it sound like being a communist is like being a member of the Green party or a socialist party. The goal of communism is to end democracy. There is a huge difference.

You keep on saying that these people who may have flirted with communism as an intellectual exercise in the 20s and 30s (which is when the bulk of the people brought before the HUAC were involved) was 'attempting the violent overthrow of the U.S. government. That's a load of bullshit. These were people who engaged in one of the fads of the day popular among intellectuals, generally from privileged backgrounds.

The other group of people who were involved with groups later determined to have been secretly funded by the Soviets were labor organizations. These labor organizations were not advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S. government either. They were attempting to win the right to collectively bargain for a living wage, decent hours, and a modicum of safety in the workplace.

Your take on U.S. history in this area sounds like it was taken directly from McCarthy's speeches. The fact of the matter is that McCarthy was an opportunist thug, looking for publicity and using a cynical and twisted political attack to get it. That's why he was latched on to by people like Nixon and Roy Cohn.

Notwithstanding the fact that you have called me both stupid and slow, I am trying to avoid getting in to ad hominem attacks. Therefore, I will suggest merely that your view of this era is perhaps a bit slanted, and that you might want to look at a few other sources to even out your understanding of McCarthy and the HUAC.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
Another one of the more stupid statements. That other one was a doozy - "Demonizing people for exercising their First Amendment rights does make McCarthy and Coulter enemies of America." (and I don't see you trying to defend it) but this one is up there. Communists by definition want to tear up teh consitution. Ever hear of the dictatorship of the proletariate?

If you are communist you are against the constitution. You do get that correct?

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is a concept that is far from universally accepted among the various factions of communist adherents. More directly to the point, the people in the U.S. who have run for office as communists have not generally run on a platform in favor of tearing up the Constitution.

If you really want to sound like you are doing more than merely puppeting the screaching of other banshees, you would do well to look at what the people you are attacking have actually said and done, rather than what Ann Coulter says they did.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by bilmore
Well, not to protect communists, but because the number of people implicated under them was making them look pretty bad.

If I were to post another McCarthy comment (which I won't), I might refer you to the good senator's speech in Wheeling, and in particular to the reference to Secretary Acheson in that speech.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
There is no doubt whether he lied misses any relevent point at all. It is just something Dems like to focus on to so they can complain when it is completely irrelevent.

How is this irrelevant? If they are asking us to pay for the war, and soldiers to die for the war, shouldn't the administration be required to give an honest answer about why we're at war in the first place?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Bob
If I were to post another McCarthy comment (which I won't), I might refer you to the good senator's speech in Wheeling, and in particular to the reference to Secretary Acheson in that speech.

Well, true as to Acheson, but then everybody to the right of Levrenti hated him. Law partner to Alger Hiss's brother, head of State at a time when State was shown to be full of communists, weak on Korea - heck, I even hate him just through osmosis.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Dissent.

Remember, this all happened long ago and far away, in a time when communism wasn't just a whacko fringe party with bad hair and unemployed people wanting to share more. Communism represented the very worst of Russia and Co., the only real huge and viable threats to this country that we've ever actually faced. (Well, beyond disco.) This wasn't a witchhunt to ferret out lefties - this was a fight against an active and ongoing and well-financed attempt at hostile spying on the USA. People had real fears of annihilation. Paranoid? Maybe. But, with at least a tinge of realism? Yeah. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you, and they were.

Speaking of this in today's context is misleading at best. Look at it more like, we've found these people who have been contributing to Zarqawi. Personally, I'm not concerned at that point about their right to free speech and assembly. They're helping an org which is actively looking to kill me. A defense of, they do such nice work in Jordanian daycare centers, doesn't go far in changing my outlook.

I disagree. It was a witchhunt. It was undertaken by McCarthy in order to try and boost a moribund political career, and it was undertaken with a minimal respect for truth or context.

[Nut Penske]

Originally posted by bilmore
Well, true as to Acheson, but then everybody to the right of Levrenti hated him. Law partner to Alger Hiss's brother, head of State at a time when State was shown to be full of communists, weak on Korea - heck, I even hate him just through osmosis.

"law partner to Alger Hiss's brother" - is this three or four degrees of separation? Let's see. Hiss. Brother. Law Partner. Acheson. Three degrees, four people.

What a steeltrap mind! Justifying Hatred of everyone within three degrees of Alger Hiss!

Now, why should we hate the other 100 million Americans?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Not Bob
If I were to post another McCarthy comment (which I won't), I might refer you to the good senator's speech in Wheeling, and in particular to the reference to Secretary Acheson in that speech.

2. I've only been on the Dems side for 1/2 a day and I've already gotten to hate these pig-headed fuck Republicans.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I disagree. It was a witchhunt. It was undertaken by McCarthy in order to try and boost a moribund political career, and it was undertaken with a minimal respect for truth or context.

"Undertaken"? You mean, like, "started"?

He didn't start it. It was going full bore from the Rosenbergs, China's fall, and the like. He just grabbed the train and walked up to the front.