Politics: J'accuse!

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by bilmore
My memory is fading. Who was it that spoke of always carrying their own bomb onto airplanes as a safety measure, because the chance of there being TWO bombs on one airplane was very low?

You know at airports they have CNN on in lounges/Worldclubs/etc.?
I get that people want news, but they should have a terrorism free CNN. I t seems like I'm always waiting for planes thinking WTF is with this stupid TV constantly talking about the new OBL tape or the Orange alert.
Better would be Cartoon network.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Reid also could have cleaned up, shaved etc. He looked like a nutjob of one sort or another. Certainly a more rational (I know) bomber would try and look less the part.

You saw what he looked like. That was cleaned up?

As BRC points out, how the fuck does he get on the plane the next day (or later that day, whichever)? Even without the shoe bombs, I'd ask that he not be placed on my flight just for general scuzziness. You take the bus, sir.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
You know at airports they have CNN on in lounges/Worldclubs/etc.?
I get that people want news, but they should have a terrorism free CNN. I t seems like I'm always waiting for planes thinking WTF is with this stupid TV constantly talking about the new OBL tape or the Orange alert.
Better would be Cartoon network.

right after 9/11 it was "terrorism free". I didn't realize they had changed it. Now if I could only find a "Raymond free" and/or "King of Queens free" American Airlines flight.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
You saw what he looked like. That was cleaned up?

Naw, he was saying Reid wasn't cleaned up, and if he had a brain in his head he would have been. He did look like a freakin' psycho, though I've known lots of college students who look as bad on a regular basis.

BR(but this isn't the FB, so I won't launch into a reverie on why anyone would make the affirmative choice to present themselves to others looking like that for any reason)C

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
On the other hand, what about approaching 200 black men in a town of 60,000 and suggesting they are "potential suspects" in some unsolved rapes and should submit to DNA testing to clear themselves?

I don't understand the point of giving "examples" like these. If a town of 60,000 has 200 black men as residents, it is true that this is a very small percent. However, I can't imagine law enforcement taking the time to find all 200 and arrange for costly DNA testing of them. Especially without first narrowing the age range after interviewing the victim or witnesses and other ways to narrow it down.

It would also not happen (your 200 black men round-up for DNA testing) b/c there's usually no reason to assume the perpetrator lives in the same town where the crime was committed. If a store in a Lubovitcher community sitting on the border of Harlem is robbed by a black man, and there are only twenty black men living in the community, I doubt whether cops are going to round up the twenty black men living in the community.

This is simply not the type of profiling that happens and I don't know why people fixate on this stuff when thinking about profiling.

Diane

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by bilmore
My memory is fading. Who was it that spoke of always carrying their own bomb onto airplanes as a safety measure, because the chance of there being TWO bombs on one airplane was very low?

Woody Allen. When he was doing stand-up and banging adults to whom he was not related. You know, when he was funny.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I don't understand the point of giving "examples" like these. If a town of 60,000 has 200 black men as residents, it is true that this is a very small percent. However, I can't imagine law enforcement taking the time to find all 200 and arrange for costly DNA testing of them. Especially without first narrowing the age range after interviewing the victim or witnesses and other ways to narrow it down.

...

This is simply not the type of profiling that happens and I don't know why people fixate on this stuff when thinking about profiling.

Atticus wasn't presenting a hypothetical, but you are correct that the example he provided is not a "the suspect is black so every black man is a suspect" example. There aren't only 200 black men in Charlotte, and the police are in fact using race as one factor among several in selecting who is being tested (resemblance to a witness description, opportunity and reports of suspicious activity). The issue is one of balance - from the article Atticus linked:

"Longo stressed that officers are not stopping black men at random. In most cases, he said, police are responding to reports from residents about men who resemble a composite sketch of the suspect or who seem to be acting strangely. "

My biggest concern would be using this sort of thing as an excuse to greatly expand DNA databases, but apparently:

"The swabs are sent to the state crime laboratory in Richmond, where they are compared with the rapist's DNA, police said. The DNA profiles are not entered into the state database, and the swabs are returned to the Charlottesville police and will be held until the rapist goes to trial. They will not be used for any other reason or for any other case, police said."

Dunno if they'll stick to it, but it is somewhat reassuring that they thought about it and plan to limit the use of the DNA collected.

It's a somewhat more nuanced example than it initially appeared -

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
It would also not happen (your 200 black men round-up for DNA testing) b/c there's usually no reason to assume the perpetrator lives in the same town where the crime was committed. If a store in a Lubovitcher community sitting on the border of Harlem is robbed by a black man, and there are only twenty black men living in the community, I doubt whether cops are going to round up the twenty black men living in the community.

This is simply not the type of profiling that happens and I don't know why people fixate on this stuff when thinking about profiling.

Diane

I would say "STP" but you clearly already scrolled past my WaPo story. Obviously, somebody thinks it's worthwhile to run 197 samples of black men fitting the profile. The difference between my "example" and the real situation is that they originally had about 700 people in a profile, then ruled out 400 of them because they were already in the state DNA database or were in jail when one of the assaults occurred. They then asked for samples from anyone whom an anonymous tipster reported looked like the composite sketch.* It's like the old Charlie Chan movies, except the living room where "Everybody in this room is potentially a murderer" is really really big.

*According to the sketch, the Unabomer was Weird Al Yankovich.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
There aren't only 200 black men in Charlotte, and the police are in fact using race as one factor among several in selecting who is being tested (resemblance to a witness description, opportunity and reports of suspicious activity).

It's one thing to investigate a person who fits a description. It's quite another to investigate a person who according to someone who has only seen a composite sketch and not the actual perpetrator looks like that feller in the picture on the post office wall. Cross-racial identification is horrendous when the victim has actually seen the perp; can you imagine it's somehow more accurate when it's a sketch drawn from somebody else's memory? The article recounts at least one occasion on which someone who didn't "match" the sketch was targeted for sampling. The moment you're asked, there's a presumption of guilt until you agree.

Besides, I think you know enough about the South to know that "reports of suspicious activity by a black man" is a pretty fuzzy standard that hasn't worked well, historically speaking.

I agree that it's nuanced, in the sense that serial rapists should be caught and strung up. But unless and until they start asking for DNA samples from the white people in town to clear the unsolved crimes involving white suspects, using the same "Have you seen me, or anyone who looks vaguely like me?" standard to narrow the field, I consider this improper racial profiling. The fact that it's easier to do with racial minorities does not justify it.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Condi Rice: No one talked about flying airplanes into buildings.

• Five years beofre Muhammed Atta boarded American Airlines Flight 11 in Boston, Dick Clarke was worried about an airplane carrying out a suicide attack on the [Atlanta Olympic] stadium or releasing a chemical or biological weapon. He asked the Justice and Defense Departments if anyone under any conditions had the authority to shoot down a civilian aircraft. The answer was an unequivocal no. In response, Clarke created an almost complete "air cap," a closure of airspace around the stadium. The FAA agree to declare the airspace off-limits to all nonofficial aircraft. FBI agents fanned out to every airstrip within a two-hundred-mile radius and asked airfield operators to report suspicious activity during the games. Finding and intercepting wayward planes posed a bigger problem because FAA radar could not indicate speed and altitude simultaneously. The problem was solved when the Army provided Patriot radar, which, at Clarke's request, was hooked up to the FAA system and that of a P-3 drug interdiction plane, a mini-AWACS, pulled off customs patrol for the Olympics. Finally, helicopters, also provided by Customs and carrying Secret Service sharpshooters -- who are employed by the Treasury Department -- were deployed to intercept incoming craft and force them out of the no-fly zone.

Sacred Terror at 249-50.

It's a little scary to think that, having read this book, I'm better informed than the National Security Advisor is about some of this stuff.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
This truly is one of the most anti-intellectual approaches to life that military thought brings us, and you want to perpetuate it just so you can feel good that someone has been sacked? Incredible.

Yes, captains who are sleeping are regularly sacked when the officer on watch makes a screwup, because "the captain was in charge." Does this have anything to do with fault? No. It simply allows us to focus on an easy demon.

If that's what you're about, have at it. But, don't expect respect for your position.

Your post contains many words, and while I understand them individually, and get the general sense of your disdain for the "argument," I can't quite follow who your target is.

If it's me, I don't get it. I'm not "perpetuat[ing military thought] just so {I} can feel good that someone has been sacked." I was blissfully unaware of the Missouri before yesterday, and feel no particular glee for its captain being sacked. Instead, I posted it as an observation of the animosity between McCain and Bush, which is still thinly veiled even heading into campaign season.

If it's McCain, well, as you say, "have at it." I'll let the military experts on board defend or reject the position.

Speaking of military experts, retired Generals McCaffrey and Odom were on NPR today* talking about various things Iraq. One of the more interesting points I heard was that (contrary to the rather breezy assurances from Bush and Rumsfeld that if what the military wants is more troops in Iraq, then they'll get 'em) we really have no more significant forces available to give. Not good.

Gattigap

*Audio link. Apparently transcripts aren't online yet.

etft -- T.S.

[Atticus Grinch]

Breaking news:

Police in Charlottesville Suspend 'DNA Dragnet'

ETA: Scooped by SB on the FB. How embarrassing!

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Not Me
She needs to be under oath testifying before the fucking 9/11 commission, not on the commission.

Get her the fuck off the commission and before the commission under oath. Let her explain why she did what she did!

She was so fucking concerned about the appearance of impropriety when she set up the wall. Funny, she isn't concerned about the appearance of impropriety now that she is on the 9/11 commission.

Vomit.

When I get past the bile, I'm not sure why you are so morally outraged. I only caught a little of the testimony a few days ago but when her turn came up to question somebody (I think it may have been Freeh or Reno), she declined to participate, with a long explanation of her employment at DOJ, which apparently ended in 1997 anyway. So the idea that she is hiding something is...misinformed.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
When I get past the bile, I'm not sure why you are so morally outraged.

Oddly enough, she's not similarly outraged that Zelikow hasn't recused himself.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Condi Rice: No one talked about flying airplanes into buildings.

• Five years beofre Muhammed Atta boarded American Airlines Flight 11 in Boston, Dick Clarke was worried about an airplane carrying out a suicide attack on the [Atlanta Olympic] stadium or releasing a chemical or biological weapon. He asked the Justice and Defense Departments if anyone under any conditions had the authority to shoot down a civilian aircraft. The answer was an unequivocal no. In response, Clarke created an almost complete "air cap," a closure of airspace around the stadium. The FAA agree to declare the airspace off-limits to all nonofficial aircraft. FBI agents fanned out to every airstrip within a two-hundred-mile radius and asked airfield operators to report suspicious activity during the games. Finding and intercepting wayward planes posed a bigger problem because FAA radar could not indicate speed and altitude simultaneously. The problem was solved when the Army provided Patriot radar, which, at Clarke's request, was hooked up to the FAA system and that of a P-3 drug interdiction plane, a mini-AWACS, pulled off customs patrol for the Olympics. Finally, helicopters, also provided by Customs and carrying Secret Service sharpshooters -- who are employed by the Treasury Department -- were deployed to intercept incoming craft and force them out of the no-fly zone.

Sacred Terror at 249-50.

It's a little scary to think that, having read this book, I'm better informed than the National Security Advisor is about some of this stuff.

Well fuck Kamikazes flew em into boats, so there is history.
But your point is that Clinton was warned and yet failed to take any steps to improve air security?
Drop the blame Bush shit Ty. This is a big circle jerk. the nationwide changes necessary took months AFTER 9/11 to get approval. Clinton/Bush should have done ? before?