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-   -   Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661)

Hank Chinaski 05-09-2005 03:43 PM

Caption, Please.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
http://us.news3.yimg.com/img.news.ya...030124.jpg?v=1
Shit. this thing is about as much use as the French were in achieving VE day. Who the fuck told Chirac he should stand next to us at the ceremony? and is that other guy a Jap? WTF?

http://www.foxnews.com/images/162902...05_russia6.jpg

Say_hello_for_me 05-09-2005 03:44 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I went to a fundraiser for (70% possible) gubenatorial Chris Bell a few weeks ago and someone asked him about school financing. It's a huge deal here, as a court has ordered the legislature to Do. Something. About. School. Financing. One of the common responses by the GOP to cries of increasing funding for education is that the money will get wasted.

Chris Bell said that makes some sense, but at the same time, he has a lot of acquaintances who send their kids to the private schools here in Houston. Parents gladly pay $13-17,000 in tutition to send their kids to those schools, and the schools have additional funding through grants, gifts and endowments, and there's a marked difference in performance on all measurements. The point was, to some extent, money is a factor. My application driven private school had 100% graduation and college rate in my class.

This is not to say that I have any interest at all in my property taxes going up.
You would make a good Virginian.

Gattigap 05-09-2005 03:49 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
You would make a good Virginian.
Sayeth the man from Chicago.

Say_hello_for_me 05-09-2005 03:52 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Sayeth the man from Chicago.
Public Schools too! Lincoln Park cheated to get on that list.

sgtclub 05-09-2005 04:41 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's easy to figure out how to ruin good schools. Just squeeze their funding.

It's much harder to figure out how to make schools better. Spending more money can help, but certainly isn't sufficient. If it was clear what to do, I think you would see individual towns -- except in California, where the conservatives prevent it -- making the various investments and changes to get better schools, because having a reputation for good schools is worth a huge amount to property values, etc.
Arggggggggggggggggg!

Tyrone Slothrop 05-09-2005 04:45 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Arggggggggggggggggg!
Note that this also was the theme of the campaign that got Prop 13 passed.

Secret_Agent_Man 05-09-2005 06:41 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7761678/...week/?GT1=6542

FL and VA seem, well, disproportionately represented. NY seems to be well-represented too.
And six of the top 100 public high schools (according to this list) are located in the Maryland county in which I reside. Just goes to show you what high taxes and lots of government regulation can do for you.

S_A_M

Say_hello_for_me 05-09-2005 07:42 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
And six of the top 100 public high schools (according to this list) are located in the Maryland county in which I reside. Just goes to show you what high taxes and lots of government regulation can do for you.

S_A_M
Yup, just discussed this with a partner at my firm from Montgomery Co. and caught the MD concentration too. There are a lot of surprises on that list overall though. Not much in Chicago's north shore. Not much in Silicon Valley. But everything in the DC burbs 'cept PG county seems to be on there somewhere or other.

I'd love to see a national regression analysis to see what factors correlate most to placement on the list. Concentration of professionals? Pure unadulterated wealth? Spending per student (hello Chicago)? I'm not in a position to argue for any one thing over another. All I know is that there are only a few concentrations on that list, and the DC burbs are one of the more noticeable ones.

Hello

Spanky 05-09-2005 11:50 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
That's pretty funny, since that article -- you know, the one that you linked to -- is about a school in Boston.

Here in California, we thank the conservatives for destroying what used to be pretty excellent public schools by removing the funding. Property taxes are capped, and localities depend on state funding. In order to raise taxes locally, you need a 2/3 vote. There was a ballot measure a few years ago to let towns hold a vote to reduce this threshold, and the conservatives defeated it -- apparently not content to have ruined the public schools in Orange County or wherever they live, they need to make sure that the lefties in Marin County and Berkeley can't opt to tax themselves to make their own schools better.
GUNN high school which is just down the street from me, and a public california high school, is on the list. If Gunn can make it why not other schools. If you think funding is the problem, you don't understand the problem. Washington DC spends more money per student that any other school system, and you can probably guess what their schools are like.

Tyrone Slothrop 05-10-2005 12:54 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
GUNN high school which is just down the street from me, and a public california high school, is on the list. If Gunn can make it why not other schools. If you think funding is the problem, you don't understand the problem. Washington DC spends more money per student that any other school system, and you can probably guess what their schools are like.
Now that I know that what it takes to get on the list is to have students take AP exams, I'm even less impressed by the list. But if they stick to this methodology, and people care, you can rest assured that many more high school students will be taking AP tests next year than this. So, lo, kids will be smarter!

California used to have public schools that were the envy of the nation. Since Prop 13, they've suffered. Everyone knows this. Money is not the sole key to improving schools, but when you cut school funding, and when you make it difficult for cities and towns to choose to spend more money on their own schools, the schools will suffer. It's that simple.

If Berkeley wants to, it should be able to choose to adopt new school funding measures by a 50% vote. They're spending their own money. The people in your party wouldn't let them do this, and the only reason that I can think of is that they're worried that it will work, that spending more money will improve Berkeley's schools, and people in other cities will want to do the same.

Spanky 05-10-2005 01:30 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If Berkeley wants to, it should be able to choose to adopt new school funding measures by a 50% vote. They're spending their own money. The people in your party wouldn't let them do this, and the only reason that I can think of is that they're worried that it will work, that spending more money will improve Berkeley's schools, and people in other cities will want to do the same.
People in my party? Before Arnold came along the Democrats controlled the Assembly, State Senate and the Governors seat for four years. Why didn't they fix this problem then? Republicans have never controlled all three branches at once in CA in my lifetime.

sgtclub 05-10-2005 01:47 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If Berkeley wants to, it should be able to choose to adopt new school funding measures by a 50% vote. They're spending their own money. The people in your party wouldn't let them do this, and the only reason that I can think of is that they're worried that it will work, that spending more money will improve Berkeley's schools, and people in other cities will want to do the same.
Or how bout this, why don't all you parents get together and hold a fundraiser? Not that I believe there is a strong correlation between spending and performance, but if it makes you feel better, fund raise away.

Tyrone Slothrop 05-10-2005 02:01 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Or how bout this, why don't all you parents get together and hold a fundraiser? Not that I believe there is a strong correlation between spending and performance, but if it makes you feel better, fund raise away.
Do you have any idea how many freaking fundraisers are held to benefit schools in this state? Public and private? You get kids of that age and you spend your life raising money through fundraisers. And you do this and the schools still suck, relative to schools in other states. Because thanks to your sort of anti-government troglodytes, California ranks down there with Mississippi towards the bottom of the states in school spending. I say this off the top of my head, without any numbers, so go ahead and try to prove me wrong.

And you know what? The fundraisers raise more money among the wealthy. When one spouse isn't working, she (it's usually a she) has more time devote to such things. And the wealthy have more money to give.

I'll tell you what. Let's try funding something you care about for a couple of years through bakesales, and we'll see how that works.

You don't even live in Berkeley, right? So why do you give a shit whether the people who live there want to tax themselves to improve their schools? Maybe you're afraid it'll work.

Tyrone Slothrop 05-10-2005 02:02 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
People in my party? Before Arnold came along the Democrats controlled the Assembly, State Senate and the Governors seat for four years. Why didn't they fix this problem then? Republicans have never controlled all three branches at once in CA in my lifetime.
I was talking about Prop 13. Those are your people, right?

Or are you taking credit for the leadership Arnold is showing on education spending?

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 05-10-2005 08:07 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
And six of the top 100 public high schools (according to this list) are located in the Maryland county in which I reside. Just goes to show you what high taxes and lots of government regulation can do for you.

S_A_M
Yeah, that's a great nugget. DC spends more than all of them and has taxes at least as high. And you've got a pretty good control here, because it's the same people, essentially.

sgtclub 05-10-2005 09:43 AM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Do you have any idea how many freaking fundraisers are held to benefit schools in this state? Public and private? You get kids of that age and you spend your life raising money through fundraisers. And you do this and the schools still suck, relative to schools in other states. Because thanks to your sort of anti-government troglodytes, California ranks down there with Mississippi towards the bottom of the states in school spending. I say this off the top of my head, without any numbers, so go ahead and try to prove me wrong.

And you know what? The fundraisers raise more money among the wealthy. When one spouse isn't working, she (it's usually a she) has more time devote to such things. And the wealthy have more money to give.

I'll tell you what. Let's try funding something you care about for a couple of years through bakesales, and we'll see how that works.

You don't even live in Berkeley, right? So why do you give a shit whether the people who live there want to tax themselves to improve their schools? Maybe you're afraid it'll work.
No blame for the teachers' union or mismanagement, huh? Interesting.

Dude, I hear your frustration. This topic frustrates me to know end. But based on what I've read on the subject, and I've read a fair amount, the problem is not one of funding.

It's also interesting that you're happy for issues to be decided locally only when it suits you.

ETA:

U.S. Education Spending per Pupil has risen steadily and dramatically since 1945 (adjusted for inflation).

http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb105-11.html

taxwonk 05-10-2005 12:42 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Yup, just discussed this with a partner at my firm from Montgomery Co. and caught the MD concentration too. There are a lot of surprises on that list overall though. Not much in Chicago's north shore. Not much in Silicon Valley. But everything in the DC burbs 'cept PG county seems to be on there somewhere or other.

I'd love to see a national regression analysis to see what factors correlate most to placement on the list. Concentration of professionals? Pure unadulterated wealth? Spending per student (hello Chicago)? I'm not in a position to argue for any one thing over another. All I know is that there are only a few concentrations on that list, and the DC burbs are one of the more noticeable ones.

Hello
Apparently one of the factors used in the ranking was the number of students on a free lunch program. I think that's all I really need to hear about this study to know how seriously to take it.

Say_hello_for_me 05-10-2005 12:59 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Apparently one of the factors used in the ranking was the number of students on a free lunch program. I think that's all I really need to hear about this study to know how seriously to take it.
Yup, that's all you really need to know* **!

Hello

*I noticed that tag on the chart, and don't know what its about, but the text of one of the articles seems to imply that the rankings are based on AP and IB (International Baccaclaureate --sp?) programs/classes offered in public schools. Don't know how the free lunch thing plays in, but if that's true its hard to imagine how DC and Chicago schools managed to stay off the list!

**And yes, I can't help but think that you were being serious when you wrote what you did above!

taxwonk 05-10-2005 01:18 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Yup, that's all you really need to know* **!

Hello

*I noticed that tag on the chart, and don't know what its about, but the text of one of the articles seems to imply that the rankings are based on AP and IB (International Baccaclaureate --sp?) programs/classes offered in public schools. Don't know how the free lunch thing plays in, but if that's true its hard to imagine how DC and Chicago schools managed to stay off the list!

**And yes, I can't help but think that you were being serious when you wrote what you did above!
Of course I was being serious when I wrote it. Any asshole who thinks that poverty levels are a legitimate predictor of the quality of education a school offers has all the scientific credibility of a chimp (sorry, Flinty). Garbage in, garbage out.

Spanky 05-10-2005 01:31 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I was talking about Prop 13. Those are your people, right?

Or are you taking credit for the leadership Arnold is showing on education spending?
Proposition 13 was passed when I was in elementary school. Jarvis Gann's initiative was opposed by most moderate Republicans at the time. The problem was the Democrats just couldn't stop raising taxes and the reaction was proposition 13. The reason that proposition 13 has the limitations also on local jurisdictions was because the proponents were afraid they would stop the state government from overtaxing just to be hit by the local governments.

The problem with your thesis is that there are plenty of public schools that are top notch in California and they are receiving the same amount of money as everyone else. So good schools can be produced at the funding that currently exists.

The problem is the teachers unions. Plain and simple. The school system moves bad teachers and principles around just like the Catholic church moves priests. Lets fix the system. Introduce student testing to see how the teachers are doing and if the kids aren't learning - see ya. Lets cut down on the burearcy - the best way to do that is set a percentage of the money that has to go directly to the schools. If the reforms don't work then we can start talking about more money. As the schools in Washington DC show, a system can waste any amount of money you throw at it.

Hank Chinaski 05-10-2005 01:38 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Proposition 13 was passed when I was in elementary school. As the schools in Washington DC show, a system can waste any amount of money you throw at it.
what is most fucked, is so much of what is done/said on this issue is driven by politics. Union support by the dems in particular. Meanwhile generations of kids graduate schools with no hope of getting anywhere. It is obscene.

Say_hello_for_me 05-10-2005 01:40 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Of course I was being serious when I wrote it. Any asshole who thinks that poverty levels are a legitimate predictor of the quality of education a school offers has all the scientific credibility of a chimp (sorry, Flinty). Garbage in, garbage out.
I'll talk slower here for ya. What makes you think you "know" that they used school lunches as any basis whatsoever? I'm still having trouble believing you seriously wrote that this was all you needed to know, when I don't even know what you say you know!

I don't see any particular formula, let alone one that shows X*(number of skool lunches per population). All I saw was some weird heading at the top of one of the title bars. But the article itself seems not to mention the gov't cheese and bologna/pupil factor.

ETA rereading the title bar and accompanying note, I think they are merely highlighting that some of the schools on the list have very high proportions of students who receive subsidized lunches while others have very low proportions. I still can't imagine how you get from the article noting these proportions to "knowing" that they are using these proportions as a basis for the rankings.


Gattigap 05-10-2005 01:44 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky


The problem is the teachers unions. Plain and simple.
Whew! Glad that's settled.

Spanky 05-10-2005 01:51 PM

Immigration
 
On the subject of our borders. Poland has a lower per capita income than Mexico. Yet Poland has joined the EU and the rest of Europe is opening its doors to Poland. Future members of the EU like Romania have per capita incomes that are not even close to Mexico. So why don't we just open the border? Because Mexico is our neighbor their problems are our problems. Putting up a huge wall does not even address the symptoms let alone the disease.

sgtclub 05-10-2005 01:51 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Meanwhile generations of kids graduate schools with no hope of getting anywhere. It is obscene.
But how do you think they'll vote?

Replaced_Texan 05-10-2005 01:56 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
On the subject of our borders. Poland has a lower per capita income than Mexico. Yet Poland has joined the EU and the rest of Europe is opening its doors to Poland. Future members of the EU like Romania have per capita incomes that are not even close to Mexico. So why don't we just open the border? Because Mexico is our neighbor their problems are our problems. Putting up a huge wall does not even address the symptoms let alone the disease.
You'll never hear an objection from me on that one.

Shape Shifter 05-10-2005 01:56 PM

Guess where's all da good schools?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
But how do you think they'll vote?
Thank you for explaining the Red States for me.

Shape Shifter 05-10-2005 02:01 PM

Bolton Nomination
 
Larry David's take:

I know this may not sound politically correct, but as someone who has abused and tormented employees and underlings for years, I am dismayed by all of this yammering directed at John Bolton. Let's face it, the people who are screaming the loudest at Bolton have never been a boss and have no idea what it’s like to deal with nitwits as dumb as themselves all day long. Why, even this morning my moronic assistant handed me a cup of coffee with way too much milk in it. I was incensed.

"You stupid ignoramus," I screamed, doing all I could to restrain myself from tossing the luke-warm liquid in her face. “There's too much freaking (I didn’t say freaking) milk in here! What the freak is wrong with you?!”

“I’m sorry, sir,” she stammered. Like sorry’s going to fix everything. I’m not interested in sorry. Sorry doesn’t cut it with me.

“Look, you idiot,” I continued, “I wouldn’t mind so much if you gave me too little milk. Little can be fixed. We can add to little.”

“Shall I get you another cup?”

“No, I’ll suck on my thumb. Yes, get me another cup, you douche bag! And chew on this -- it’s going to cost you a dollar!”

This, of course, brought on the requisite tears. At which point I'd had enough and began chasing her down the hall where she took refuge in the bathroom. Boo-hoo. Poor thing!

Meanwhile, I’m the one who had to go into the kitchen and make my own coffee! And guess what? I missed a very important phone call from this masseuse whom I’d been trying to get an appointment with forever!!

(Sorry about all the exclamation points, but you can see how worked up I get over this Bolton business!)

There is one thing, though, I’ll guarantee: that will be the last time she puts in too much milk. So get to work, Bolton. Show these other countries who’s the boss.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblo...s.html#a000443

Spanky 05-10-2005 02:09 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
You'll never hear an objection from me on that one.
How about chopping mexico into a few states and lettting them join the Union?

Say_hello_for_me 05-10-2005 02:11 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
How about chopping mexico into a few states and lettting them join the Union?
I think Mexico has states already. But they are a little suspicious of us, so I think they might take it better if we offered to become the next 50 states of Mexico.

Ola'

Gattigap 05-10-2005 02:11 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
How about chopping mexico into a few states and lettting them join the Union?
Wouldn't they need to wait behind DC, Puerto Rico and Guam?

Spanky 05-10-2005 02:34 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Wouldn't they need to wait behind DC, Puerto Rico and Guam?
I think Puerto Rico should be admitted. DC I am not so sure about. It is the federal district and was set up as such. When people moved there they knew they were not going to enjoy the priviledges as a member of a state. If people want to live in a state they can always move to Maryland or Virginia.

I don't know that much about Guam, but I am all for Puerto Rico entering the union.

Sexual Harassment Panda 05-10-2005 02:37 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Wouldn't they need to wait behind DC, Puerto Rico and Guam?
No. Fuck 'em. We're the US of fuckin' A. We can do whatever the hell we want. God wanted it that way, or he would have made Russia or China or Germany or Japan numero uno, but He didn't, did He. QE fuckin' D.

Gattigap 05-10-2005 02:48 PM

Immigration
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky When people moved there they knew they were not going to enjoy the priviledges as a member of a state. If people want to live in a state they can always move to Maryland or Virginia.
Look, I don't particularly care about DC's admission into the Union, but a "fuck 'em, let 'em move! How hard can it be?" argument is probably not the best one to lead off with.

Not Bob 05-10-2005 02:50 PM

Starbucks! (fuck, yeah!)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
QE fuckin' D.
I like this version better than the one I used earlier today in a post of mine on the Fashion (our motto: "come for The Flower, stay for the paigowisms!") Board. May I borrow it?

Spanky 05-10-2005 02:55 PM

The problem with Americans is that we are too ethnocentric, which is insane because we are all Mutts. There are no Aryan Americans. Almost all Caucasian Americans have blood from every European nationality running through our veins. I believe the US of A is superior for three reasons. Our political and economic philosophy that led to our current economic and political system, the fact that we are an immigrant nation and the melting pot of different culture and ethnicities. In order to come here you had to have the guts to risk it all and start in a new land. The melting pot produces all sort of variables that make our economy vibrant, flexible and entrepenurial. The problem with with Latin America is they have just had bad governments, but they are peopled by immigrants just like the US. They are also ethnic melting pots just like the US. As Chile proves today (and Argentina and Brazil proved at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries), if you get the right system in place in a Latin American country it can excel. The USA does not have a superior culture. I think admitting Latin American countries to our union would benefit both people. I think by having latin countrys in our union would benefit them because it would force their systems to improve, and it would make our economy more dynamic and diversified.

The mulitple languages would cause some inefficiencies, but Swizerland seems to have that problem figured out, so why couldn't we?

Hank Chinaski 05-10-2005 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
The problem with Americans is that we are too ethnocentric, which is insane because we are all Mutts. There are no Aryan Americans. Almost all Caucasian Americans have blood from every European nationality running through our veins. I believe the US of A is superior for three reasons. Our political and economic philosophy that led to our current economic and political system, the fact that we are an immigrant nation and the melting pot of different culture and ethnicities. In order to come here you had to have the guts to risk it all and start in a new land. The melting pot produces all sort of variables that make our economy vibrant, flexible and entrepenurial. The problem with with Latin America is they have just had bad governments, but they are peopled by immigrants just like the US. They are also ethnic melting pots just like the US. As Chile proves today (and Argentina and Brazil proved at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries), if you get the right system in place in a Latin American country it can excel. The USA does not have a superior culture. I think admitting Latin American countries to our union would benefit both people. I think by having latin countrys in our union would benefit them because it would force their systems to improve, and it would make our economy more dynamic and diversified.

The mulitple languages would cause some inefficiencies, but Swizerland seems to have that problem figured out, so why couldn't we?
How many more Federal holidays would there be? RT, would I get May 5 off? How can we just take a country? I mean is it Iraq as precedant?

Sexual Harassment Panda 05-10-2005 03:01 PM

Starbucks! (fuck, yeah!)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
I like this version better than the one I used earlier today in a post of mine on the Fashion (our motto: "come for The Flower, stay for the paigowisms!") Board. May I borrow it?
Because your Rockford Files avatar brings back so many nostalgic moments, be my guest.

Spanky 05-10-2005 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
How many more Federal holidays would there be? RT, would I get May 5 off? How can we just take a country? I mean is it Iraq as precedant?
I was thinking more like Texas and Louisiana as precedents.

notcasesensitive 05-10-2005 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
How many more Federal holidays would there be? RT, would I get May 5 off? How can we just take a country? I mean is it Iraq as precedant?
You missed the paternalism? They'd have to be crazy not to want to assimilate with us! We're the US of fucking A!

Sorry, May 5th falls too close to our Memorial Day. But if the Mexicans can come up with some cute little holiday in March, we'll consider adding it to the roster.


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