LawTalkers

LawTalkers (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/index.php)
-   Politics (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661)

Tyrone Slothrop 04-28-2005 12:54 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Did you know that Frist's dad owns the biggest HMO in the south.
Politicians like him remind you how far we are from true equality of opportunity in this country.

Spanky 04-28-2005 01:27 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Politicians like him remind you how far we are from true equality of opportunity in this country.
I met the guy at the RNC headquarters a few years back. This was before he was majority leader. He asked me what the hell was going wrong in California. I asked him if he really wanted to know........ he said yes. I told him that every time he and those other southern boys opened their mouths they made my job that much harder. He said something about changing hearts and minds. I told him to stick to the fiscal issues and let the state parties deal with the social issues. I don't think he liked me very much. And how was I to know he would become Majority leader? I knew it was going to be a disaster when Dole gave up his senate seat.

Hank Chinaski 04-28-2005 08:42 AM

An Olive branch to Sidd
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Isn't the first question to ask "what is a drug"? Are vitamins drugs? Sugar? Fat? Nearly everything ingested causes some sort of physiological change. So what is a drug?
I was going to post "Diet pills?" and add this great new fat teddy image I found- then I decided not to, for Sidd.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 10:57 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Maybe, but if you go there, I go back to FDR.
You can go back to FDR all you want, but the road will still lead you to the right, eventually.

Sidd Finch 04-28-2005 10:58 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
I told him to stick to the fiscal issues
Because the Rs in the federal government have been handling those so well?

don't-tax-just-spend, don't-tax-just-spend.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 10:59 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
A chicken in every pot?

http://richard.meek.home.comcast.net/FatTeddy1.JPG
Hank, we're all impressed both with the fact that you dated Ted kennedy and the fact that you look simply smashing in a blue turban. You can stop posting the picture, already.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 11:00 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
FDR invented judge bashing.
Actually, I believe it was Thomas Jefferson. If not, it was certainly Andrew Jackson.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 11:04 AM

Mixing points on a temporal plane
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
You say that like there were 4 employers. there weren't except in maybe some company towns. There are plenty of people today working for minimum wage, despite robust competition for employees between walmart, mcdonalds, home depot, etc.
In company towns, there was generally one employer. That's why they were called company towns.

And the robust competition for employees between Wal-Mart, McDonalds, etc., in places where there is competition, has lead to those places paying above minimum wage. But only in the face of competition. But, of course, we were talking about what led to the imposition of a minimum wage, not why it still exists. Or why it still exists at a (barely) subsistence level.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 11:06 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Did you know that Frist's dad owns the biggest HMO in the south.
He's still a fucking idiot and a shill for the Conservative Right. If he runs, the Dems are simply going to buy the Stephanopoulos interview, play it once a day in every major city in the US, and Frist won't make it to Super Tuesday.

Replaced_Texan 04-28-2005 11:08 AM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Did you know that Frist's dad owns the biggest HMO in the south.
Hospital chain. Let's not really go into HCA's issues with Medicare fraud...

Left-Wing Syndicate 04-28-2005 12:23 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
He's still a fucking idiot and a shill for the Conservative Right. If he runs, the Dems are simply going to buy the Stephanopoulos interview, play it once a day in every major city in the US, and Frist won't make it to Super Tuesday.
Wrong. First we'll make sure he's the nominee, THEN we'll start running the interview.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 12:44 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Left-Wing Syndicate
Wrong. First we'll make sure he's the nominee, THEN we'll start running the interview.
Wouldn't you rather knock him out in the primaries and let the Christian whackadoos kill off Jeb for not getting all Posse Comitatus on Terri Schiavo? That'll leave them with Zell Miller. Hell, mmmmmmmm867-5309 could beat Zell.

Left-Wing Syndicate 04-28-2005 12:54 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Wouldn't you rather knock him out in the primaries and let the Christian whackadoos kill off Jeb for not getting all Posse Comitatus on Terri Schiavo? That'll leave them with Zell Miller. Hell, mmmmmmmm867-5309 could beat Zell.
No. We want him to go through the glory of nomination, ascend to the heights of political hopes and aspiration, believe in every fiber of his being that he WILL be president, and then - we'll crush him like an ant. He'll be the Republican Dukakis.

He beat one of us to a cab once in DC while it was raining, and laughed and waved as he sped off. We don't forget.

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 12:54 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Hospital chain. Let's not really go into HCA's issues with Medicare fraud...
Sweetie, you are screwing up the "It's all the fault of managed care, not hospitals/doctors/patients" paradigm. For shame.

Replaced_Texan 04-28-2005 01:16 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Sweetie, you are screwing up the "It's all the fault of managed care, not hospitals/doctors/patients" paradigm. For shame.
HCA and Tenant. The for-profit mega hosptial chains are the scum of the healthcare earth. No worries, I'm still on the side of good.

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 01:18 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
HCA and Tenant. The for-profit mega hosptial chains are the scum of the healthcare earth. No worries, I'm still on the side of good.
Tenet. Have you merged with a Catholic entity yet, and stopped providing abortion-related and/or birth control services?

Replaced_Texan 04-28-2005 01:46 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Tenet. Have you merged with a Catholic entity yet, and stopped providing abortion-related and/or birth control services?
No, but the legislative session isn't over yet, so there's still time for the theocracy to fuck with things.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 04-28-2005 01:57 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Actually, I believe it was Thomas Jefferson. If not, it was certainly Andrew Jackson.
Jefferson. Marbury v. Madison.

Didn't work out for him, for FDR, for anyone. The Justices have a better W-L than Hank.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 02:47 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
No, but the legislative session isn't over yet, so there's still time for the theocracy to fuck with things.
Don't be absurd. The Texas Legislature is more likely to merge you with a Jewish outfit than a Catholic one. At least the Jews control the international banking syndicate.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 02:49 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Jefferson. Marbury v. Madison.

Didn't work out for him, for FDR, for anyone. The Justices have a better W-L than Hank.
That's what I was thinking. But if anyone wanted to challenge me on Marbury, then the easy fallback was Jackson's "They (the SC) have made their decision; now let them enforce it" response.

Replaced_Texan 04-28-2005 04:44 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
This is what the Democrats in the Senate would be pushing for[list=1][*] Women's Health Care (S. 844). "The Prevention First Act of 2005" will reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and abortions by increasing funding for family planning and ending health insurance discrimination against women.
[*]Veterans' Benefits (S. 845). "The Retired Pay Restoration Act of 2005" will assist disabled veterans who, under current law, must choose to either receive their retirement pay or disability compensation.
[*]Fiscal Responsibility (S. 851). Democrats will move to restore fiscal discipline to government spending and extend the pay-as-you-go requirement.
[*]Relief at the Pump (S. 847). Democrats plan to halt the diversion of oil from the markets to the strategic petroleum reserve. By releasing oil from the reserve through a swap program, the plan will bring down prices at the pump.
[*]Education (S. 848). Democrats have a bill that will: strengthen head start and child care programs, improve elementary and secondary education, provide a roadmap for first generation and low-income college students, provide college tuition relief for students and their families, address the need for math, science and special education teachers, and make college affordable for all students.
[*]Jobs (S. 846). Democrats will work in support of legislation that guarantees overtime pay for workers and sets a fair minimum wage.
[*]Energy Markets (S. 870). Democrats work to prevent Enron-style market manipulation of electricity.
[*]Corporate Taxation (S. 872). Democrats make sure companies pay their fair share of taxes to the U.S. government instead of keeping profits overseas.
[*]Standing with our troops (S. 11). Democrats believe that putting America's security first means standing up for our troops and their families.[/list=1]

Daily Kos via MyDD

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 04-28-2005 04:54 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
This is what the Democrats in the Senate would be pushing for[list=1][*] Women's Health Care (S. 844). "The Prevention First Act of 2005" will reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and abortions by increasing funding for family planning and ending health insurance discrimination against women.
[*]Veterans' Benefits (S. 845). "The Retired Pay Restoration Act of 2005" will assist disabled veterans who, under current law, must choose to either receive their retirement pay or disability compensation.
[*]Fiscal Responsibility (S. 851). Democrats will move to restore fiscal discipline to government spending and extend the pay-as-you-go requirement.
[*]Relief at the Pump (S. 847). Democrats plan to halt the diversion of oil from the markets to the strategic petroleum reserve. By releasing oil from the reserve through a swap program, the plan will bring down prices at the pump.
[*]Education (S. 848). Democrats have a bill that will: strengthen head start and child care programs, improve elementary and secondary education, provide a roadmap for first generation and low-income college students, provide college tuition relief for students and their families, address the need for math, science and special education teachers, and make college affordable for all students.
[*]Jobs (S. 846). Democrats will work in support of legislation that guarantees overtime pay for workers and sets a fair minimum wage.
[*]Energy Markets (S. 870). Democrats work to prevent Enron-style market manipulation of electricity.
[*]Corporate Taxation (S. 872). Democrats make sure companies pay their fair share of taxes to the U.S. government instead of keeping profits overseas.
[*]Standing with our troops (S. 11). Democrats believe that putting America's security first means standing up for our troops and their families.[/list=1]

Daily Kos via MyDD
Yeah, that's a wonderful thought exercise.

On a couple, WTF:

2. If a veteran is disabled, s/he should be paid until he would have retired to replace the lost income. Once s/he would have retired, s/he shoudl get the retirement benefits. Why double the benefit?

3. How about extending pay-go just to increased spending, but not to tax cuts? Otherwise the system just gets ossified at the current level of taxation.

4. And when do they suggest refilling the SPR so we don't have to go to war or dig up ANWR immediately upon the next supply shock? Why is cheap gas good for us? Because it helps the environment?

5. Why is the federal government doing this? Other than "because they can".

6. What happened to FLSA--was it repealed? What's "unfair" about the current minimum wage? Wonk, I want answers.

7. How are current laws insufficient to prevent such manipulation? And, should the federal government tell california how to police its own energy market, which is where Enron was gaming the system?

8. Companies don't pay taxes. People pay taxes. Corporate taxation is smoke and mirrors.

9. Um, sure. Okay. And?

Hank Chinaski 04-28-2005 04:58 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
5. Why is the federal government doing this? Other than "because they can".
I have an uncle (the movie star's ex!) who is a big teacher's union guy. So i asked him once what does the Dept. of Education do? Good faith question I was not being a smart ass. All he could say was they ensure compliance with Fed statutes. What does it do? Anyone?

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 05:02 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Yeah, that's a wonderful thought exercise.

On a couple, WTF:

2. If a veteran is disabled, s/he should be paid until he would have retired to replace the lost income. Once s/he would have retired, s/he shoudl get the retirement benefits. Why double the benefit?

3. How about extending pay-go just to increased spending, but not to tax cuts? Otherwise the system just gets ossified at the current level of taxation.

4. And when do they suggest refilling the SPR so we don't have to go to war or dig up ANWR immediately upon the next supply shock? Why is cheap gas good for us? Because it helps the environment?

5. Why is the federal government doing this? Other than "because they can".

6. What happened to FLSA--was it repealed? What's "unfair" about the current minimum wage? Wonk, I want answers.

7. How are current laws insufficient to prevent such manipulation? And, should the federal government tell california how to police its own energy market, which is where Enron was gaming the system?

8. Companies don't pay taxes. People pay taxes. Corporate taxation is smoke and mirrors.

9. Um, sure. Okay. And?
To the extent that the Kos things are self-serving descriptions, 2.

#2 may have to do with some structure that provides lower benefits for disability than for retirement, but starting retirement early may considerably reduce the retirement benefit b/c there's usually a reduction for early commencement. I am not (quite) curious enough to look this up.

#6 really is probably about reversing, at least in part, the changes to FLSA that were put through a year or so ago.

#8 I think has something to do with places like Tyco (Worldcom) which an article I was reading yesterday noted is nominally headquartered in Bermuda but has its main operations out of someplace in New Jersey. I am sympathetic to taxing entities that are primarily in the US as if they were HQed in the US and not maintaining some teeny office someplace for tax reasons. Because that's bullshit. If we are going to have the corp tax, we need it to be applied fairly.

#7 and #9 are impossible to tell what they mean.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 05:26 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
6. What happened to FLSA--was it repealed? What's "unfair" about the current minimum wage? Wonk, I want answers.

8. Companies don't pay taxes. People pay taxes. Corporate taxation is smoke and mirrors.

Well, as to your first point above, the current minimum wage is $6.50/hr in Illinois. That means that a peson making the minimum wage earns $1040/mo. A CTA bus pass is $75. Rent is a minimum of $650 to live in a rathole. Daycare in a licensed facility is a minimum of $125/week per child. Assume that the person has 0 FI withholding; they still have about 10% for FICA and IL tax. Utilities and phone are another $200/month. That's fixed expenses of $1425/month and net income of $936. Oh. Don't forget about food and occasional medical expenses.

Next question?

Your point that corporate taxation is smoke and mirrors displays a certain amount of naivete. Taxes or not, corporations don't pay out all their income as dividends. You point would only be valid if all corporations liquidated on an annual basis.

There. And I did it all with a bare minimum discussion of taxes.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 04-28-2005 05:37 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk

Next question?

Your point that corporate taxation is smoke and mirrors displays a certain amount of naivete. Taxes or not, corporations don't pay out all their income as dividends. You point would only be valid if all corporations liquidated on an annual basis.

There. And I did it all with a bare minimum discussion of taxes.
Next question is why should person A be forced to give person B something they haven't earned. If you want to make sure people have adequate housing, healthcare, food, bus service, be honest and propose a tax increase. But if the employer and employee are in agreement about a particular wage (as revealed by the hire and the acceptance), why meddle?

On two, that's a timing issue, not one of principle. So Microsoft has $38B in cash. Microsoft, not individuals. Why should they pay tax on that (esp. when it increases the value of hte stock, on which capital gains tax will be paid upon sale).

I find one of the most pernicious problems with teh current tax code is the efforts to "hide" taxes by making their existence unclear or the effect of various provisions hard to determine. If government has to rely on chicanery in order to support itself, it's hardly able to claim the consent of the governed.

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 05:45 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
blah blah blah not really taxing corporations
Right. But, given that we have a tax system in which corporations are taxed, or a tax is imposed at the corporate level, do we want to let some that have their main operations here, and all their officers and all board members here, be taxed less because they are nominally incorporated in Bermuda?

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 04-28-2005 05:50 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Right. But, given that we have a tax system in which corporations are taxed, or a tax is imposed at the corporate level, do we want to let some that have their main operations here, and all their officers and all board members here, be taxed less because they are nominally incorporated in Bermuda?
a legitimate point on which I don't care to debate the arcana of whether they're legitimately "foreign" corporations that we should or should not tax differently than US corps.

it's all so ethereal, given that corps. aren't people, so you can't make some rule like you have to live in Monaco for 10 years before you get to stop paying US taxes. Or pay Bill Clinton for a pardon.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 05:52 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Next question is why should person A be forced to give person B something they haven't earned. If you want to make sure people have adequate housing, healthcare, food, bus service, be honest and propose a tax increase. But if the employer and employee are in agreement about a particular wage (as revealed by the hire and the acceptance), why meddle?
Once again, you're assuming that the market is both free and efficient. If you honestly believe that, then there is nothing I can say that will be adequate to persuade you.

I think you're being willfully obtuse here, though. Under your theory, nobody would take a job that didn;t pay them enough to meet their basic needs. However, if the minimum wage is all that's offered to them, are they freely participating in the market?

Quote:

On two, that's a timing issue, not one of principle. So Microsoft has $38B in cash. Microsoft, not individuals. Why should they pay tax on that (esp. when it increases the value of hte stock, on which capital gains tax will be paid upon sale).

I find one of the most pernicious problems with teh current tax code is the efforts to "hide" taxes by making their existence unclear or the effect of various provisions hard to determine. If government has to rely on chicanery in order to support itself, it's hardly able to claim the consent of the governed.
Nobody's hiding anything here. The corporate tax is an excise tax on the privilege of doing business in corporate form. The taxpayer is paying for the state's sponsorship of its limited liability, continuity of life, free transferability of interests, and the ability to separate management from ownership.

All of these benefits are conferred on the corporation by the laws of the state and thee United States. The courts have recognized this principle since 1912. If you don't like it, invest in LLCs and partnerships only. There's no "chicanery" involved.

taxwonk 04-28-2005 05:55 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
a legitimate point on which I don't care to debate the arcana of whether they're legitimately "foreign" corporations that we should or should not tax differently than US corps.

it's all so ethereal, given that corps. aren't people, so you can't make some rule like you have to live in Monaco for 10 years before you get to stop paying US taxes. Or pay Bill Clinton for a pardon.
Actually, you're wrong. In a juridical sense, corporations are people. They contract in their own name, they can own property, they have access to the courts, they exist notwithstanding the life or death of any of their owners at any given point in time.

Your difficulty appears not to be with the arcana of tax policy, but with the legal status of the corporate body.

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 05:55 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
a legitimate point on which I don't care to debate the arcana of whether they're legitimately "foreign" corporations that we should or should not tax differently than US corps.

it's all so ethereal, given that corps. aren't people, so you can't make some rule like you have to live in Monaco for 10 years before you get to stop paying US taxes. Or pay Bill Clinton for a pardon.
I think you are missing a verb or a colon or something in the first paragraph.

Shape Shifter 04-28-2005 06:01 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan [*]Corporate Taxation (S. 872). Democrats make sure companies pay their fair share of taxes to the U.S. government instead of keeping profits overseas.
Is Latvia tax friendly?

Not Bob 04-28-2005 06:04 PM

Freedom of contract
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
But if the employer and employee are in agreement about a particular wage (as revealed by the hire and the acceptance), why meddle?
Indeed. And if employer and employee are in agreement about working conditions (as revealed by the hire, acceptance, and continued employment), why meddle? And kids have that freedom, too -- let their parents decide whether they should work or not.

http://www.vahistorical.org/exhibits/hine03.jpg

Tyrone Slothrop 04-28-2005 09:57 PM

Your 11th Amendment almost at work
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Have you merged with a Catholic entity yet?
Look, missy, take it to the FB.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-28-2005 09:58 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
2. If a veteran is disabled, s/he should be paid until he would have retired to replace the lost income. Once s/he would have retired, s/he shoudl get the retirement benefits. Why double the benefit?
I read posts like this and think to myself, thank God that we have conservatives in this country to ensure that disabled veterans don't suck us dry.

Taking it to the FB.....

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 04-28-2005 10:33 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I read posts like this and think to myself, thank God that we have conservatives in this country to ensure that disabled veterans don't suck us dry.

Taking it to the FB.....
I'm down to about 8th on the seriatim of sucking us dry. You missed 1-7 since last night.

ltl/fb 04-28-2005 11:30 PM

Putting aside Judicial nominations and steroids
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'm down to about 8th on the seriatim of sucking us dry. You missed 1-7 since last night.
mmmm, sucking dry?

Tyrone Slothrop 04-29-2005 12:37 AM

Caption, Please.
 
http://us.news3.yimg.com/img.news.ya...478845.jpg?v=1

Shape Shifter 04-29-2005 11:26 AM

Caption, Please.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
http://us.news3.yimg.com/img.news.ya...478845.jpg?v=1
"The good and capable people of the Middle East all deserve responsible leadership. For too long, many people in that region have been victims and subjects. They deserve to be active citizens."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3248119.stm

taxwonk 04-29-2005 12:46 PM

Is there a now Great Pumpkin board?
 
Or is there another reason nobody's discussing politics today?

Appropos of which....

Any thoughts on Bush's sudden reacquaintance with reality in the social security arena? I'm beginning to think that if the Adminstration's serious about taking the heat off the Rs for benefit cuts and increasing the level of progressivity, there may actually be a way to arrive at agreement on a reform bill. Am I being too optimistic?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:06 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Hosted By: URLJet.com