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-   -   Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661)

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 04-07-2005 10:44 AM

schiavo
 
So, why is the staffer the fall guy?

Schiavo talking points memo author canned.

Because the members' agreement with it didn't poll well?

Say_hello_for_me 04-07-2005 11:09 AM

Pope stuff
 
1st: anybody have a quick list of the 12 U.S. Senators who went to the Vatican for this? Glad to see nobody made an issue of any of this (yet).

2nd: Great quote from Bill Clinton:

>>Clinton said he recognized that John Paul "may have had a mixed legacy," but he called him a man with a great feel for human dignity.

"There will be debates about him. But on balance, he was a man of God, he was a consistent person, he did what he thought was right. That's about all you can ask of anybody." <<

taxwonk 04-07-2005 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Ignore me. I care not. I just never new that there were lawyers who confused "knew" with "new". Seriously. It is knew to me.
You have to stop mixing up the spelling. I'm starting to loose (hi BRC!!!) your meaning.

sgtclub 04-07-2005 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
As the "slamee" I would have to agree. That was brutal and I can't believe no one has acknowledged that. I have been trying to find the Gorbachav interview as I remember it but up till now I have not been successful. I may just have to buy the damn videotape.
The PBS biography of RR has it.

Secret_Agent_Man 04-07-2005 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
All my posts have been responses. How come you think I am the one keeping this going?
Q.E.D.

S_A_M :rolleyes:

Shape Shifter 04-07-2005 01:08 PM

schiavo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
So, why is the staffer the fall guy?

Schiavo talking points memo author canned.

Because the members' agreement with it didn't poll well?
Hell, he'll be nominated for the federal bench soon. He'll be okay.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-07-2005 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The PBS biography of RR has it.
No it doesn't.

Shape Shifter 04-07-2005 01:13 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No it doesn't.
Slam!!! In your face, club. Way to go, Ty. Mad props!

Hank Chinaski 04-07-2005 01:43 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Slam!!! In your face, club. Way to go, Ty. Mad props!
Wouldn't you like to follow Ty around one day? I mean "follow" is a bad word choice, because he just sits at the computer reading blogs and crap like that- but still just to get a sense of how little time he must work or interact with people would be fascinating.

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 01:53 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Wouldn't you like to follow Ty around one day? I mean "follow" is a bad word choice, because he just sits at the computer reading blogs and crap like that- but still just to get a sense of how little time he must work or interact with people would be fascinating.
Is it daylight savings that has made you so bitter? Christ.

In other years, another example of lawyers being lovable:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/....ap/index.html

"Martinez did not identify the aide [who was "unilaterally" responsible for the memo], but The Washington Post said he was the senator's legal counsel, Brian Darling."

sgtclub 04-07-2005 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No it doesn't.
Must be a different one. I have it at home.

notcasesensitive 04-07-2005 02:09 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Wouldn't you like to follow Ty around one day? I mean "follow" is a bad word choice, because he just sits at the computer reading blogs and crap like that- but still just to get a sense of how little time he must work or interact with people would be fascinating.
I'm guessing he's a social cripple with no life outside of his blogs and his imaginary computer friends. I get a sense of this through his posting style. Well, I've only read one or two of his posts, but I think I really know what he's like.

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 02:09 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Is it daylight savings that has made you so bitter? Christ.

In other years, another example of lawyers being lovable:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/....ap/index.html

"Martinez did not identify the aide [who was "unilaterally" responsible for the memo], but The Washington Post said he was the senator's legal counsel, Brian Darling."
Oooh, and from NYT article about a hold-up on the confirmation of the guy nominated for EPA chief:

"Ms. Boxer's objections were based on a little-known research program near Jacksonville, Fla., sponsored by the agency and the American Chemistry Council, that offered money to low-income families willing to allow the agency to measure the effects of pesticides on their children under one year of age. The project, called Children's Environmental Exposure Research Study, or Cheers, was suspended last year after negative public reaction that prompted the agency to call in outside experts to assess its feasibility.

The program was limited to families in Duval County that routinely used pesticides inside their homes. It offered parents $970 over two years if they made sure their young children went about their usual activities as the use of pesticides continued. Researchers would then visit the home every three to six months to collect data. "

I like the name. "Cheers." Perky.

Yes, I'm sure that there is a different, nicer-sounding way to spin the program, and that the damn liberal media has spun it so sound as bad as possible. But it's kind of an unerasable initial strike against them when they call a "keep exposing your kids to pesticides!" program something deceptively perky.

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 02:11 PM

schiavo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
So, why is the staffer the fall guy?

Schiavo talking points memo author canned.

Because the members' agreement with it didn't poll well?
Motherfucker!! Sorry. I seriously thought I had scrolled, but apparently I missed some.

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 02:12 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
I'm guessing he's a social cripple with no life outside of his blogs and his imaginary computer friends. I get a sense of this through his posting style. Well, I've only read one or two of his posts, but I think I really know what he's like.
You forgot "unpleasant to be around."

Shape Shifter 04-07-2005 02:24 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
You forgot "unpleasant to be around."
Why? Because he does not share his Rockpile Zinfandel?

Hank Chinaski 04-07-2005 02:30 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
You forgot "unpleasant to be around."
He's married Fringe, quit trying to scare the other girls off- he is not date-bait.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-07-2005 03:58 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
I'm guessing he's a social cripple with no life outside of his blogs and his imaginary computer friends. I get a sense of this through his posting style. Well, I've only read one or two of his posts, but I think I really know what he's like.
Uncanny. It's like you've known me for years.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-07-2005 04:01 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Why? Because he does not share his Rockpile Zinfandel?
The '02 was so good that they raised the price $5 for the '03, which is just out.

Today's happy news is that my local wine shoppe has found more of the Klinker Brick '02 zin -- not as good as the Rockpile but much less expensive. When you hang out by yourself as much as I do, you end up drinking a lot.

taxwonk 04-07-2005 04:08 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Oooh, and from NYT article about a hold-up on the confirmation of the guy nominated for EPA chief:

"Ms. Boxer's objections were based on a little-known research program near Jacksonville, Fla., sponsored by the agency and the American Chemistry Council, that offered money to low-income families willing to allow the agency to measure the effects of pesticides on their children under one year of age. The project, called Children's Environmental Exposure Research Study, or Cheers, was suspended last year after negative public reaction that prompted the agency to call in outside experts to assess its feasibility.

The program was limited to families in Duval County that routinely used pesticides inside their homes. It offered parents $970 over two years if they made sure their young children went about their usual activities as the use of pesticides continued. Researchers would then visit the home every three to six months to collect data. "

I like the name. "Cheers." Perky.

Yes, I'm sure that there is a different, nicer-sounding way to spin the program, and that the damn liberal media has spun it so sound as bad as possible. But it's kind of an unerasable initial strike against them when they call a "keep exposing your kids to pesticides!" program something deceptively perky.
But, they had such success with the Tuskeegee Study under similar circumstances.

Spanky 04-07-2005 04:12 PM

Krispey Kreme
 
I have started eating Krispey Kremes again. I had gone months without going through the drive through at 1:00 AM to buy the Crack - I mean Doughnuts. I could be wrong, but recently, I believe there have been many references to Doughnuts around me that may have led to my addictive relapse........

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 04:13 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
But, they had such success with the Tuskeegee Study under similar circumstances.
At least "Tuskeegee Study" is neutral, and not trying to sound perky and harmless. It's like naming a bill that imposes uncompensated labor requirements on unemployed healthcare workers "Forcing Unemployed Nurses to Truck Itinerant Mexicans Everywhere" so that it can be referred to as "Funtime."

OK, that was a crap example. Where is Argus when we need him????

Hank Chinaski 04-07-2005 05:04 PM

Happy Gnu Year
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Oooh, and from NYT article about a hold-up on the confirmation of the guy nominated for EPA chief:

"Ms. Boxer's objections were based on a little-known research program near Jacksonville, Fla., sponsored by the agency and the American Chemistry Council, that offered money to low-income families willing to allow the agency to measure the effects of pesticides on their children under one year of age. The project, called Children's Environmental Exposure Research Study, or Cheers, was suspended last year after negative public reaction that prompted the agency to call in outside experts to assess its feasibility.

The program was limited to families in Duval County that routinely used pesticides inside their homes. It offered parents $970 over two years if they made sure their young children went about their usual activities as the use of pesticides continued. Researchers would then visit the home every three to six months to collect data. "

I like the name. "Cheers." Perky.

Yes, I'm sure that there is a different, nicer-sounding way to spin the program, and that the damn liberal media has spun it so sound as bad as possible. But it's kind of an unerasable initial strike against them when they call a "keep exposing your kids to pesticides!" program something deceptively perky.
you came out against animal testing right? What was left?

Tyrone Slothrop 04-07-2005 05:55 PM

opportunity costs
 
John Quiggan does a rough cost-benefit analysis on the invasion of Iraq and says it wasn't worth it:
  • After months of delay and dispute, the BBC reports that the Iraqi Parliament has finally mustered the two-thirds majority needed to nominate a president and two vice-presidents. These positions are largely ceremonial, but the deal presumably implies an agreement to select a Prime Minister, after which an interim government can finally take office, with the task of drawing up a permanent constitution. Some good news is that the Allawi group has been kept to the marginal position its weak electoral support implies.

    There are still plenty of big problems ahead – the delays reflect fundamental divisions between Kurds and Shias about the future of Iraq and, except for some token appointments, the Sunnis have been excluded altogether. And the insurgency continues with little letup, having no doubt found many recruits among the refugees from Fallujah, almost completely destroyed in the November campaign there. Still, it seems reasonable to hope that a reasonably democratic, and only moderately Islamist government will eventually emerge.

    Assuming this happens, was the invasion worth it? In my view, No.

    As far as the Iraqis themselves are concerned, they are rid of an odious dictatorship, but tens of thousands of lives have been lost in the process, and many more will be lost before this is all over[1]. If the decision to invade had been made in support of a domestic insurrection, this kind of trade-off might be justified, but it was not for the US to make this kind of decision. An invasion to change a government can be justified, if at all, only when it is assured of quick and fairly bloodless success, and of a rapid handover of power to a reasonably democratic alternative.

    From the viewpoint of the world as a whole, the issue is much clearer. The $200 billion spent on the war could have saved millions of lives if even half of it had been allocated to health care in poor countries. Even if the money were spent in the US, it could have saved tens of thousands of lives (the usual estimate is that marginal health interventions cost about $5 million per life saved).

    A fraction of the military resources used in the war could have supported a more robust international intervention in Darfur (not an invasion, but peacekeeping with vigorous rules of engagemetn), again with a huge saving in lives. Or there are a bunch of other dictators who could have been pushed aside with less cost in lives, some of whom are allies of the US. Cheerleaders for the war are hailing the possibility of partially free elections in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as a consequence of the war. But particularly in the case of Egypt, the US could have ensured free elections any time it chose by telling Mubarak that his aid would be cut off unless he held them (ideally with a carrot of more aid if he did hold them).

    As far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the real problems in Korea, Iran, Pakistan and the former Soviet bloc have got steadily worse while we spent years chasing shadows.

    The costs of the war were also great in terms of the lies needed to promote it, the crimes committed in its course and the international distrust and hatred that was generated. It’s hard to chase down the costs of such things, but they are real. It’s clear for example that, no matter what evidence the US produces about Iran’s nuclear program, it will have little or no credibility.

    Finally and obviously, if the US government had been willing to make the kind of commitment in Afghanistan that was made in Iraq, instead of leaving the job to local warlords, bin Laden would be dead or in jail by now.

    fn1. I don’t want to get into numerical disputes here, as these have been aired in detail elsewhere. As far as I can see, no credible authority is now claiming that death rates from violence and related causes like malnutrition have fallen since the invasion. Saddam killed hundreds of thousands in his foreign and civil wars of the 1980s and early 1990s, and sanctions killed many more before Oil-for-Food, but neither of these were relevant to an invasion in 2003.

    fn2. A more difficult hypothetical question. Suppose that the US had held elections in 2003 as Sistani demanded at the time. The election result would have been much the same (maybe with a better Sunni turnout), and perhaps some of the disasters of 2004 would have been avoided or mitigated. I still would not judge the invasion to have been justified, but the ratio of benefits to costs would have been much higher.

Crooked Timber

Tyrone Slothrop 04-07-2005 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Ignore me. I care not. I just never new that there were lawyers who confused "knew" with "new". Seriously. It is knew to me.
"I respect a man who knows how to spell a word more than one way."
-- Mark Twain

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"I respect a man who knows how to spell a word more than one way."
-- Mark Twain
n/a (this is my new term for whiff) -- it's two words, not "a" word.

Spanky 04-07-2005 07:19 PM

Replaced Texan
 
Is that guy running against Delay a Republican for the primary or a Democrat for the General?

Replaced_Texan 04-07-2005 08:24 PM

schiavo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
So, why is the staffer the fall guy?

Schiavo talking points memo author canned.

Because the members' agreement with it didn't poll well?
I thought that the memo was another part of the vast left wing conspiracy. Who knew....?

ltl/fb 04-07-2005 08:28 PM

schiavo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I thought that the memo was another part of the vast left wing conspiracy. Who knew....?
The "memo is part of the VLWC" is just another part of the VRWC.

Replaced_Texan 04-07-2005 08:30 PM

Replaced Texan
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Is that guy running against Delay a Republican for the primary or a Democrat for the General?
Richard Morrison is a Democrat. He's an environmental lawyer here, family guy, church goer, interested in transit issues that DeLay has been blocking for years. I thought he was warm and personable.

There's a lot about the call he did on Tuesday at Off the Kuff. ETA I found the post and linked to it.

There was a Republican who ran in the last election against DeLay and Morrison. He ran as an independent, and I think he lost to DeLay in the primary with 22 percent of the Republican vote in 2000. I'm blanking on his name, but Morrison seemed to think that the most likely Republican to run, should DeLay not run for whatever reason, would be the Mayor of Sugarland and not that guy.

Spanky 04-08-2005 01:59 AM

Replaced Texan
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Richard Morrison is a Democrat. He's an environmental lawyer here, family guy, church goer, interested in transit issues that DeLay has been blocking for years. I thought he was warm and personable.

There's a lot about the call he did on Tuesday at Off the Kuff. ETA I found the post and linked to it.

There was a Republican who ran in the last election against DeLay and Morrison. He ran as an independent, and I think he lost to DeLay in the primary with 22 percent of the Republican vote in 2000. I'm blanking on his name, but Morrison seemed to think that the most likely Republican to run, should DeLay not run for whatever reason, would be the Mayor of Sugarland and not that guy.
What is the Republican and Democrat registration in that district? Can a Democrat even win there? Is the only real hope taking him out in the primary by another Republican?

Tyrone Slothrop 04-08-2005 01:13 PM

Berger
 
The WSJ defends the Berger plea:
  • After a long investigation, [the Department of Justice] says the picture that emerged is of a man who knowingly and recklessly violated the law in handling classified documents, but who was not trying to hide any evidence. Prosecutors believe Mr. Berger genuinely wanted to prepare for his testimony before the 9/11 Commission but felt he was somehow above having to spend numerous hours in the Archives as the rules required, and that he didn't exactly know how to return the documents once he'd taken them out.

    More than a few conservatives have been crying foul, or whitewash, in part because Mr. Berger's plea means he'll likely avoid jail and lose his security clearance for only three years. So we called Justice Department Public Integrity chief prosecutor Noel Hillman, who assured us that Mr. Berger did not deny any documents to history. "There is no evidence that he intended to destroy originals," said Mr. Hillman. "There is no evidence that he did destroy originals. We have objectively and affirmatively confirmed that the contents of all the five documents at issue exist today and were made available to the 9/11 Commission."

via Political Animal

Gattigap 04-08-2005 01:41 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The WSJ defends the Berger plea:
  • After a long investigation, [the Department of Justice] says the picture that emerged is of a man who knowingly and recklessly violated the law in handling classified documents, but who was not trying to hide any evidence. Prosecutors believe Mr. Berger genuinely wanted to prepare for his testimony before the 9/11 Commission but felt he was somehow above having to spend numerous hours in the Archives as the rules required, and that he didn't exactly know how to return the documents once he'd taken them out.

    More than a few conservatives have been crying foul, or whitewash, in part because Mr. Berger's plea means he'll likely avoid jail and lose his security clearance for only three years. So we called Justice Department Public Integrity chief prosecutor Noel Hillman, who assured us that Mr. Berger did not deny any documents to history. "There is no evidence that he intended to destroy originals," said Mr. Hillman. "There is no evidence that he did destroy originals. We have objectively and affirmatively confirmed that the contents of all the five documents at issue exist today and were made available to the 9/11 Commission."

via Political Animal
Let's keep this liberal blog shit out of it, Ty. Remember, Burger Lied !!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...humbscrews.jpg

Sidd Finch 04-08-2005 01:50 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The WSJ defends the Berger plea:
  • After a long investigation, [the Department of Justice] says the picture that emerged is of a man who knowingly and recklessly violated the law in handling classified documents, but who was not trying to hide any evidence. Prosecutors believe Mr. Berger genuinely wanted to prepare for his testimony before the 9/11 Commission but felt he was somehow above having to spend numerous hours in the Archives as the rules required, and that he didn't exactly know how to return the documents once he'd taken them out.

    More than a few conservatives have been crying foul, or whitewash, in part because Mr. Berger's plea means he'll likely avoid jail and lose his security clearance for only three years. So we called Justice Department Public Integrity chief prosecutor Noel Hillman, who assured us that Mr. Berger did not deny any documents to history. "There is no evidence that he intended to destroy originals," said Mr. Hillman. "There is no evidence that he did destroy originals. We have objectively and affirmatively confirmed that the contents of all the five documents at issue exist today and were made available to the 9/11 Commission."

via Political Animal


The liberal MSM strikes again.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-08-2005 02:10 PM

schiavo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
The "memo is part of the VLWC" is just another part of the VRWC.
All this can now be called "Powerline-was-completely-fucking-wrong-gate."

sgtclub 04-08-2005 02:27 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Noel Hillman, who assured us that Mr. Berger did not deny any documents to history. "There is no evidence that he intended to destroy originals," said Mr. Hillman. "There is no evidence that he did destroy originals. We have objectively and affirmatively confirmed that the contents of all the five documents at issue exist today and were made available to the 9/11 Commission."
Maybe I've been practicing too long, but what this suggests to me is that (a) he did destroy copies and (b) although the contents of the originals were made available to the committee, the any written notes on the copes that were destroyed were not.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-08-2005 02:48 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Maybe I've been practicing too long, but what this suggests to me is that (a) he did destroy copies and (b) although the contents of the originals were made available to the committee, the any written notes on the copes that were destroyed were not.
I think you've been practicing too long. I think Hillman -- who, remember, has been prosecuting Berger -- is trying to say that nothing was lost.

Shape Shifter 04-08-2005 03:09 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Maybe I've been practicing too long, but what this suggests to me is that (a) he did destroy copies and (b) although the contents of the originals were made available to the committee, the any written notes on the copes that were destroyed were not.
You have not practiced much before the Justice Department, apparently. It is my experience that they would take that sort of thing very seriously.

Hank Chinaski 04-08-2005 03:16 PM

opportunity costs
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
it seems reasonable to hope that a reasonably democratic, and only moderately Islamist government will eventually emerge.

Assuming this happens, was the invasion worth it? In my view, No.
How can you post the shit you do? Do you understand the concept of a bullshit filter at all?

Quote:

An invasion to change a government can be justified, if at all, only when it is assured of quick and fairly bloodless success, and of a rapid handover of power to a reasonably democratic alternative.
By this logic we shouldn't have started the United States.

Quote:

From the viewpoint of the world as a whole, the issue is much clearer. The $200 billion spent on the war could have saved millions of lives if even half of it had been allocated to health care in poor countries. Even if the money were spent in the US, it could have saved tens of thousands of lives (the usual estimate is that marginal health interventions cost about $5 million per life saved).

A fraction of the military resources used in the war could have supported a more robust international intervention in Darfur (not an invasion, but peacekeeping with vigorous rules of engagemetn), again with a huge saving in lives. Or there are a bunch of other dictators who could have been pushed aside with less cost in lives, some of whom are allies of the US. Cheerleaders for the war are hailing the possibility of partially free elections in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as a consequence of the war. But particularly in the case of Egypt, the US could have ensured free elections any time it chose by telling Mubarak that his aid would be cut off unless he held them (ideally with a carrot of more aid if he did hold them).
And we'll call the land Shangra-la!


Quote:

As far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the real problems in Korea, Iran, Pakistan and the former Soviet bloc have got steadily worse while we spent years chasing shadows.
True, but the Dems have been voted out now, so we're on the case. Hey. How come he didn't include Libya?

sgtclub 04-08-2005 03:47 PM

Berger
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think you've been practicing too long. I think Hillman -- who, remember, has been prosecuting Berger -- is trying to say that nothing was lost.
I never doubted anything was lost. I just thought he was trying to cover for potentially embarrassing handwritten comments.

The DOJ language is very precise. As someone who has a lot of experience drafting public disclosure, I think DOJ's statement is painstakenly clear.


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