Everything is our problem
 

True.


See my other post. South Africa has a significant economy. And we look to any number of Subsaharan countries for oil -- including Angola, a very fragile state that is also threatened by instability in the region.

True. And let me note that it appears that China has figured out the benefits of working in Africa. Sadly, they aren't that selective about the regimes they work with (but hey -- it's China. It's not like they'll reject governments for slaughtering their citizens, y'know?).


Um..... I remember hearing this one oh, say, a little over two years ago. Intervention is cheap! Iraq will pay for the occupation itself! $200 billion and 1600 American lives later.....

And let's not forget that intervention itself can lead to more instability, as long-simmering ethnic and political rivalries are suddenly able to be expressed when dictatorial power is removed. I'm not sure that this would happen in Zimbabwe -- the Shona and Ndebele are not comparable to the Hutu and Tutsi in any real sense -- but still. One needs to think of these things.


Agree. But the country really needs to be behind it and, somehow, I question whether that will happen.

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

Good lord, fellas. Put down the thumbscrews (don't worry, you can use them in a minute) and go back and read:

• "Readers with clearances respond to Berger case. Earlier today, I asked for feedback about whether Sandy Berger's behavior is as baffling to those with security clearances as it was to me. Several people responded, and a few have agreed to let me post their perspectives anonymously.
  
  Reader J:
  
  Responding to your question, and having held Top Secret clearances now for the last six years, I am at a loss to explain what Berger was thinking. The GOP charges that Berger was engaged in some type of cover-up are difficult to believe -- the 9/11 Commission had full access to the Clarke report that Berger purloined -- it did not need the National Archives copy. That report was fully referenced in the final Commission report. If Berger did all this to cover something up, he is more stupid than criminal.
  
  I have heard the following explanations:

Despite assumptions, you're not reading a NYT Op-Ed piece. You're reading responses of other folks with security clearances who don't know Berger, were apparently written at about the same time as these news reports showing more details about what Berger did, and are speculating why Berger would do something both illegal and so profoundly stupid.

Your complaints of (1) AAAAaaugggh! they're getting facts wrong!! and (2) aaaauggh!! they're reframing the issue!! are fine as far as it goes, but that wasn't the point.

Ok, that's it. Here ya go!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...humbscrews.jpg

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

Well what was the point? Or do you just like posting things that add nothing to the debate?

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

Admins and Mods:

If the above does not become the board motto -- with Club's name firmly attached to the quote -- then there is no God.

***

Club, the point, albeit a minor one, was speculation as to why Berger would do something so profoundly stupid. The writer suggested that part of it may be the hubris that affects ex-head honchos, which I found interesting, especially since -- as the writer pointed out -- Berger has guaranteed that he'll never work in government again. It appears that you do not. Though my wound is deep, I will accept this and move on.

I shall work hard to raise the level of analysis and value of my future posts, led by your example.

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

I hear that once you get used to it, it's really not that bad.

http://www.torturamuseum.com/images/boia.jpg

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

No. And I can't believe you're really having this mucvh trouble understanding this. At this point, I have to believe you're trolling.

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

Right, but as Bilmore and I originally pointed out, the speculation was based on bad facts, so it wasn't very valuable.

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

I had let the debate drop. Ty brought it up again. Perhaps it's Ty that's the troll.

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

Why let it drop? I think "Torture Advocate" would make an interesting line item on your resume. Good conversation starter.

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

Apparently that title is already taken by Gonzales

Good news from Chicago
 

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 

N.B. -- Only admins can change the board motto (as opposed to the name of the thread).

Good news from Chicago
 

If you have a moral problem filling a prescription, shouldn't you have a moral problem handing it off to someone else in the pharmacy to fill? Shouldn't you tell the customer that the factory stopped making the medicine, or something?

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

You should put "apologist for massive UN diversion of funds to Annan family" on your resume- might help you get a job in compliance at worldcom or some such

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 

That's a little wordy, and you're supposed to use action words on resumes. Maybe I'll just put down "America Hater."

Well Said. When all the Republicans were doing their partisan bit screaming about Serbia and Kosovo, the Neo-Cons were quiet. I had Dr. Rice speak to a Republican group here during the Kosovo thing and she refused to critisize Clinton. She also refused to critisize Clinton for going into Somalia (much to the shock of the audience). That is when I new there would never be a military intervention she did not like.

It would not be correct for anyone to criticize Clinton for going into Somalia.

eta: Timeline here.

Yes, but did she speak positively about either intervention? Silence is nice, but....

OTOH, both interventions suffered from a lack of commitment. If you are going to attack and capture a well defended warlord, skip the Humvees and send in some fucking tanks. If you are going to ship the Apaches to Kosovo, put them the fuck into action.

Good news from Chicago
 

If you've got a moral problem filling any prescription, you shouldn't be a fucking pharmacist. My jolly corrupt neighbor gets something right every once in a while. If this kind of stuff doesn't get nipped in the bud, these kinds of protestations will only get worse. What's next: "I didn't fill her prescription for folic acid because I am morally opposed to black woman having healthy babies, and that's my right!"?

My favorite Al- i'm the Smart Candidtae who knows foreign policy- Gore debate moment was when he started to defend going into Somalia, then remembered his briefing and he's like "that one wasn't our's!" Bright boy!

Trust me- if I'm ever part of an administration I'll remember all the countries I send troops to die, unless I get in a time machine and go become science advisor to Genghis Khan or alexander the Great or something.

Which makes sense when you think about it, since it was George H.W. Bush who went into Somalia.

eta: stp

Do you ever get the feeling of deja vu?

Did you hear that club wants to train our soldiers to rape POWs in certain circumstances?

Cheney on the Courts
 

• Cheney was asked about the issue on Friday by the editorial board of the New York Post. He said twice that he had not seen DeLay's remarks, but the vice president said he would "have problems" with the idea of retribution against the courts. "I don't think that's appropriate," he said. "I may disagree with decisions made by judges in any one particular case. But I don't think there would be much support for the proposition that because a judge hands down a decision we don't like, that somehow we ought to go out -- there's a reason why judges get lifetime appointments."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...administration

since that's the main role of the UN in Africa, maybe he just wants to make sure we're ready?

I've already checked. The UN peace keepers will agree to do the training on the cheap.

Off my corner ho!

Cheney on the Courts
 

When the discourse has shifter so far to the right that Cheney is looked to as a moderating influence, you know we're in trouble.

Cheney on the Courts
 

Cheney's not a cultural conservative. He's the kind of conservative who believes that redemption comes from oil, guns and money.

Cheney on the Courts
 

What's the point?

Cheney on the Courts
 

Have a seat.

http://www.torturamuseum.com/images/chair1.jpg

You know its funny you said this, because Dr. Rice's comments where that she did not disagree with the interventions (most of the Republicans were repeating and following the mantra that both of these did not involve US strategi interest so we should not be there), just that Clinton micromanaged them too much. Her opinion was that there were problems in both because Clinton put too many political restrictions. But in defense of Bubba, the military told him that you couldn't win the war without putting boots on the ground, and Clinton thought he could do it with just bombing. The Apaches had a much stronger risk of being shot down. But Clinto pulled it off. Not one US casuality and he got the Serbs out of Kosovo. You have to give credit where credit is due.

I thought the deal with the Apaches was that the civilian leadership (Clinton and others) ordered the helicopters deployed over the Army's objections, and the Army dragged its feet so as to ensure that the Apaches never saw action. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to blame or credit Clinton for his role, since I would hope that he wasn't worrying about such details, but the Apaches had their share of problems in Iraq, making it look like the Army had some good reasons to be worried.

You are not going to catch a Neo-con criticizing any intervention anywhere. The only criticism that they would have is that your firepower was not superior enough and that your retaliation was not swift enough.

One if by land, two if by, uh, land.
 

Don't think I've seen much here on the Minuteman Project. In its first day, apparently the number of media reps rivals the number of volunteers:

• We have already accomplished our goal a hundredfold," Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and project organizer, said as more than 100 members of the media jostled and jockeyed for position outside a registration building on Friday morning. "We've got our message out to the American public."
  
  Gilchrist estimated the number of media at 100 to 120. He claimed to have four times as many volunteers registering in Tombstone to participate in patrols to detect undocumented immigrants in the San Pedro Valley, a bustling smuggling corridor, and report them to the U.S. Border Patrol.
  
  But there was no way to independently verify the number of volunteers, who were registered in two buildings.
  
  The turnout fell far short of the 1,000 hyped before the event, although Gilchrist said more volunteers are expected throughout the month.
  
  On the first day of the project, the media showed up en masse, with satellite trucks lining the streets of this historic town in Cochise County, an illegal-immigration epicenter that accounted for 1 in 5 of the 1.1 million arrests along the Southwestern border last year.
  
  ***
  
  Marc Cooper, a senior fellow with the Institute for Justice and Journalism at the University of Southern California, said the project "caught a wave" of positive press, particularly with popular, conservative cable shows.
  
  "The spectacle we're seeing today has been primarily driven by the media," he said, adding that it received an incredibly disproportionate amount of coverage, even from mainstream press. "There's a sexy story here, and the media bit the hook."

I do think that one good arising from this circus is the focus on the inadequacies of the US Border Patrol and the security threat to what is a particularly porous border. That said, the temptation to make some mocking predictions is irresistible.

Better than even odds for the following to occur:

* Look to see Hannity and Colmes film on location after the end of The Pope Watch, scheduled to be sometime in mid-august. The barbed wire in the background will be a nice touch.

*The over/under for Minutemen arrested during the Project: 14

*The over/under for Mexican immigrants somehow falling dead during an attempted border crossing: 32

* Over/under date for the abrupt end of the Minuteman Project once the American public starts paying $8.32/lb for strawberries -- May 2

Gattigap

I am a big fan of McCain and not a fan of Bubba. However, during the Kosovo intervention McCain was constantly critisizing Clinton that you can not win a war using only airpower. The Generals were bitching to McCain that the Airpower was never going to accomplish anything and that Clinton was risking our pilots on another limited war like Vietnam that we could not win unless we committed ground troops. Bubba was right in the end.

One if by land, two if by, uh, land.
 

I don't recall where I read that the proportion of border crossings in this "porous" area was quite low until they closed off other areas more completely -- this area may not have a lot of patrols, but the terrain is so harsh that it was unpopular (and thus didn't need so many patrols) until it became the only area. Huge number of people die attempting to cross because it's miles and miles and miles of desert and no water. Apparently you can't walk it and carry on your person the amount of water you would need to live. Kind of fucking scary.

Now I'm depressed. Someone go post something about sex.

That's kind of like criticizing Reagan in '86 (?) for using only airpower against Libya instead of invading. The military point is well taken, but Kosovo (and Libya) involved more limited conflicts in which the use of airpower tested the political resolve of the other side.

On Somalia, SS and I were trying to point out that we went in under Bush, not Clinton.

a scene from the Schiavo protests
 

Wish I'd seen this at the time:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/idiots.jpg

One if by land, two if by, uh, land.
 

On the immigration issue Bush is right and the rest of the Republican leadership is wrong. Dead wrong. Mexico is our problem. The only reason Mexicans want to come to the United States is because their economy sucks. The only way to fix the problem is to raise the standard of living in Mexico. NAFTA was a big step in that direction. If you got rid of all the illegal Mexican immigrants in the US and sealed the border the California economy would collapse. France, Germany and England had this same problem with Spain and Portugal. But once Spain and Portugal were integrated with the European economy their standard of living increased and the problem was over.

One if by land, two if by, uh, land.
 

I hate this thing more than I hate most hairbrained right-wing vigilante schemes.

Part of it comes from having (legal citizen)family members that could possibly be shot by these yahoos, not to mention close (not so legal) alien resident friends; part of it comes from coming from Texas where we don't care as much about such things as they apper to in Arizona; and part of it comes from the general worry that this is going to escalate into an ethnicly charged battle.

What I find interesting, though, is the different attitudes about illegal immigration in different border states. With the exception of Kinky Freedman (who lost any and all hope of my support for his wacky candidacy because of the relevant statements), I don't really hear that much negative about illegal immigration here. Everyone knows that several industries would collapse immediately if cheap labor were messed with. Hell, the restaurant industry alone would be toast, and we Houston fats love to eat too much to allow that to happen. New Mexico seems to be the same way. The good people of Arizona, on the other hand, seem to get into an irate frenzy over the thought of anyone coming into the country, and California has oddly shown signs of leaning anti-immigration as well.

I'd think it had to do with the relative populations and history of the states, but California was also once part of Mexico.

I do know that my family was here first. Er, well before any of those pesky Anglos got here, and you don't see ME shooting anyone. And lord knows we were hurt a lot more by invaders than those idiots in Arizona.

ETA: Anecdotally, it seems that there are a lot more border checks than there were before 9/11. Driving down to South Texas is a little more of a pain in the ass than it used to be with all the stops. They even took away the rowboat from Terlingua to the bar on the other side of the river. I mean, honestly, who the fuck is going to invade the country through Terlingua, Texas in a rowboat?