Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

That's just nuts.

S_A_M

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Are you at all concerned here with your/our soul?

I am glad you use the term "we" and "us" throughout your posts, because (I believe) it means you agree with me that whatever is done is being done not by a few individuals whom we can wash our hands of, but by "us", whether directly or indirectly.

I believe there are acts done under stress and in crises that can be and should be forgiven, but cannot imagine us as a country deciding that torture is what or who we are. If we torture to protect "civil rights" or "human dignity", we are simply choosing to destroy those things ourselves rather than let others destroy them.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I am claiming that, in the context of a war, the claims of torture I've seen are a relatively small deal. I think I've typed that word "context" several times.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

The current situation is that the military is stonewalling on providing information regarding abuse of prisoners. If the military was truly interesting in clearing the air, they would not be doing this.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I think this is a idealistic view.

no wonder . . .
 

In more critical, timely news, Judge Greer (of Schiavo fame) was once a roommate of Jim Morrison.

I was trying not to post this, but I can't not . .
 

Doll mistaken for alien

A burnt rubber doll was mistaken for a badly injured alien and taken to a hospital in Brazil.

It happened after people in Aracruz found a burnt 'body' on the ground after seeing a fireball fall from the sky.

A police spokesman told Terra Noticias Populares: "Many people were terrified thinking that an alien invasion was taking place.

"They thought the doll was a burnt ET and more than 50 people called the station."

The 'alien' was taken to the local hospital where doctors soon confirmed it was a burnt rubber doll.

A hospital spokesman said: "It was obviously a practical joke but we wonder who would do that in such a small and quiet town."

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I'm concerned with winning. Everything else is just theory. My soul would not be very happy living in a dictatorship.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Does someone have a Church Lady sock (or does this reference just show my age)? Eternity is a long time, and the guy with the horns is quite a dictator.

I thought we were talking theoretically. I find that as long as we are talking theoretically, it's much easier to be idealistic.


(By the way, as I catch up, I must say I am pretty offended by the Terri Schiavo socks, which I'm sure was intentional. I trust everyone here does realize that just because someone is born again, it doesn't mean we froth at the mouth).

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I believe (perhaps through experience) in hell on Earth, but not in the afterlife.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

It's not simply that "we're above it." It's wrong. It violates civil rights and we have no problem with things like keeping China off the most-favored nation list for engaging in it. This isn't a relative issue.

I would not refuse to use the information. On the other hand, if we're simply allowing the Pakis to act as our proxies, then it's no different than us doing it ourselves.

Are you related to Paddy Bauler?* The fact that the concept of civil liberties and human rights is being strained in these times calls for greater vigilance, not less. How are we going to foster a democratic culture in the ME if we can't maintain one ourselves?




*The old ward heeler credited with the classic phrase "Chicago ain't ready for reform."

etft -- t.s.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

You've typed the word "context" so many times, I'm wondering whether it's replaced "conscience" for you.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

In Abu G. And, it appears from the bit I posted originally, Mosul as well. And Gitmo. This "small group" sure does get around.

And this "it doesn't matter because I'm sure that no minds were changed anyway" is the most self-serving pile of shit passing for an argument I've seen you write on this board.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Stick with the program, Mr. Terry. The question is not what to do with the evidence it produces, but whether to torture said captive in the first place.

Until you decide to engage on that question, I've got you down for "yes, with glee."

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Fuck you. I had a much longer question. Pakistan comes to us- they tortured some Al Queda guy and the guy says there's a cell in Peoria- What do we do?

Put aside the run of the mill people who were tortured, that was wrong. But the no. 3 Al Queda guy- we left him in Pakistan for a reason- is that okay?

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Indeed. It dispenses with the need for troublesome line-drawing, too.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Certainly not when your main point is that minds were changed. Remember, what I was responding to with that point was "ooooo, it made us look bad, now the whole world disrepects us!"

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

You, like everyone else, keep ducking the question.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Please let me know what question I've ducked.

Yes, I have ideals. The difference between us is that I would find it more noble to die to uphold than to kill to uphold them, where you appear fonder of killing. We are not going to agree on this one.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Forget about the rest of the world - assuming that you are ready to take on some level of responsibility for things done in our name, how do YOU feel about participating in torture?

Historically, it is very common for those who are tortured to become torturers themselves; not unlike abused children who become abusers themselves. What does it make us feel about ourselves that we resort to torturing so many people in so many places?

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Fair enough. I believe that would be ducking an obligation of some sort, but your right, we are not going to agree.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Back atcha, asshole. I guess you don't like sarcastic responses to your questions, either.

Congratulations. I had hoped that eventually we'd get past the sarcasm targeted for pussified liberals who have the temerity to be concerned about torture conducted, permitted, or condoned by US forces, and come up with a concession, however grudging, that in some cases it might, you know, not be such a good idea.

Look, if Musharraf calls and say "Hi there, we flayed a guy in Islamabad, he's all over the fuckin' walls now, but anyhoo, we think you should cover Peoria," of course you go.

But I'm not a fan in the first place of the CIA's frequent flier program to drop off detainees at sun-splashed Club Meds around the world to have them, ah, "mistreated" on our behalf.

I remain impressed at the creativity of the apologists on this board in their line-drawing skills. Club's OK with having the women (I assume he's limiting it to the women) raped if they committed a grave offense. You're apparently OK with it if it just happens in messy places like Kabul.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

http://www.foxnews.com/images/158689...aura_girls.jpg

These girls are now in school. Before they would be at home waiting for a Taliban colonel to come rape them. Some people that would like to kill them, and would like to kill my kids, got tortured at Gitmo. I think most of them should be shot as i can't think of how you ever let them go. The only reason to keep them alive is the information they may have. So really the torture is the only reason to keep them alive- Paradox huh? That's how I feel about it.

RINO
 

You know that people like you is that you are a liberals best friend. Reverand Al Sharpton and Howard Dean are the best friend of Republicans because they are so extreme they push the people in the middle towards our party. And in just the same way, people like you push the wavering middle into the arms of the Democrats. Those pictures that you post and the diatribes you spout are invaluable assets (much more valuable than money) in the Democrats arsenal.

It is people like you that insure that the Democrats control California.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I will pray for you. I don't think arguing with you will help.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Take it back- shouldn't have let the women out of the Afghan houses- big mistake:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixportal.html

• Afghan housewife admits serial killing of 27 men
  
  A housewife in Afghanistan, where crime used to be almost unheard of, has become one of the world's most prolific women serial killers after admitting that she murdered at least 27 men.
  
  The bodies of 18 men were found buried in the backyard of her home in the eastern city of Jalalabad. A further six corpses were found in the yard of a property in Kabul. Another corpse, that of Gul's 60-year-old first husband, was subsequently discovered under the floor of her Jalalabad home while two other bodies were found elsewhere.
  
  "She has admitted she killed them," said Gen Mohammed Zahir Nahem, senior investigator for Afghanistan's National Security Directorate. Most of Gul's offences are believed to have been committed since the Taliban fled the 2001 American invasion. Crime was virtually non-existent during the fundamentalist militia's rule. Police say most of the victims of Gul and her accomplices were taxi drivers.

RINO
 

What is RINO?

And ensure. But you are correct. It's why the pendulum will probably swing back, unfortunately just at the time that the irresponsible tax cut/budget shit is hitting the fan. God, politics is depressing. (Contrast this with "God, sex is fun." Maybe I should restrict myself to the happy FB.)

oops
 

wrong board.

RINO
 

"Republican in Name Only", but I wasn't sure who Spanky was charging with being a RINO. Most of the Rs around here do a good job of reinforcing what I think the Republican party stands for.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

So then what you're saying is that it's okay to torture grown women and men (and presumably teens, since so many of them have been detained as well) in order to protect their little girls?

Will you be the one to explain to them that their Daddies had to die in order to protect you so your little girls can have a father?

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Ah, I see. Err on the side of life and all that. Thanks for making this clear.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

That's not what I said at all, and you know it. I'm getting a little angry here......

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I didn't duck the question. You're wrong. Bilmore's wrong. Hank's wrong.

Count me as one of the pussified liberals. Torture is wrong. Morally, absolutely, completely. It doesn't matter who does it. It doesn't matter what the end is that the torture is supposed to serve. We cheapen ourselves as human beings when we seek to rationalize or condone it. We weaken the very liberties we are fighting to preserve when we abuse the liberties of others.

If you lie down with dogs, you come up with fleas.

If I wasn't being clear enough before, I apologize for the miscommunication on my part.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I doubt that Dershowitz is a "fan" of torture. I'm no "fan" of dropping bombs on cities. Problem is, you need to take a stand that goes beyond the weenie "I'm not a fan of bad things". Sometimes you need to do bad things to stop badder things. Saying that you're not a fan of bad things is a copout.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

ARRRGGGGHHHGGGHH!!!!

Billy bob at Abu gharib did bad- and if commanders told him to do bad they should go to prison- just like Jack nicholsen.

But the guys who went to Gitmo were a high probabilty of livelong Jihadi guys. You know, guys who would fly a plane into a building. Should we let them go, or Should we try and get what we can out of them?

Can we torture OBL if we catch him, to get info on cells here?

What's fucked up about those guys is we are apparently letting many of them go- Wanna bet they'll be back in the news someday?

RINO
 

You're catching on, now.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I understand what you said, Hank. You see the issue as presenting a paradox. I'm trying to get you confront that paradox.

You see, I believe that liberty and human dignity are moral absolutes. I don't think we have the power, the resources, or the will to enforce them everywhere they are being ignored or abused. But I do believe that every time we, as a nation, allow ourselves to set aside these liberties, we weaken our argument to the world that they are absolutes and worth fighting and dying for.

Your life, on a global stage, has no more intrinsic value than that of any man in Abu Ghraib. The only thing that gives one life more value than another (if indeed, it can be said that one life can have more value than another) is what you do with it. When you allow yourself to think that using the tactics of the enemy can be in any way justified by the fact that you are trying to vanquish him, how can you declare your cause just?

If that angers you, so be it. I get annoyed from time to time by your constant gratuitous digs at me. At least this is something worth getting mad about. I guess you're just a better person than I am.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

30 detainees were just released from Gitmo because the military's own internal process, in which they did not even get to see and rebut the evidence against them or have a lawyer, determined there was no basis for holding them.

So, how do you feel about the torture that's been directed at these 30 guys? Should we explain to their children that this is the way the US operates when its at war, but it doesn't represent what they should expect from Democracy?

I have two practical reasons for thinking this is very bad policy: I believe it increases the risk to our own soldiers and because I don't think it accomlishes much - torture by its nature provides mediocre, difficult to verify information and information that is partial and disjointed. The torturee must tell us something, he believes, for the torture to stop, but is not going to tell us everything because that will put him in more danger.

On the other hand, the person who is convinced to switch sides or the person who is able to infiltrate produces very good, consistent and verifiable information.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

No, Bilmore. Doing bad things to stop badder things is a part of the way the world works. Rationalizing doing the badder things yourself in order to stop someone else from doing them is a copout.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

2.

2. And we as a supposedly civilized nation need to demand a full and transparent accounting. The military is being evasive. You guys control the government, so it's up to you to demand that the military fess up.

Experience has proven that there are better means than torture to get information out of prisoners. Not only is torture immoral, it is unreliable and inefficient. I thought you guys were about efficiency in government.

I'd sure like to, but see my comments above. I actually hope we kill him rather than capture him. That saves us the messy "what do we do with him now?" problems that the administration always seems to stumble on.

Wanna bet they all have GPS transmitters embedded in their asses?