Are you comparing Terri to a murderer? As a lawyer you should know that the term circumstantial evidence is not the same as weak evidence. Without circumstantial evidence most guilty men and women would walk free. Before a murderer is put to death, the burden of prove is beyond a resonable doubt. Before you execute an innocent person (taking the feeding tube away is a slow form of execution), shouldn't you show that they wanted to die beyond a reasonable doubt?

I think the people of a state are entitled to decide for themselves what level of proof they would want, and have their courts enforce it.

If you're worried that you'll be too easily disconnected, do as Bilmore says and sign the piece of paper.

(and, as for evidence, circumstantial evidence often is weak evidence)

One thing left I wanted to say is I do respect the Catholic Church's position on life. They believe only God should decide who lives and dies. So the catholic church is also against the death penalty. But there are many protestants that invoke religion when it comes to cases like Terri's saying only God should take life yet support the death penalty. (btw, I am a Protestant so I can rag on my own kind without being a Bigot). I have noticed that there are a lot of Catholics who want Pro-Choice politicians to not get comunion, but think it is OK for Jeb Bush, who is a Catholic to get comunion even though he supports the death penalty.

Work in Progess
 

I am working on it but at this point I just seem to be incurring the wrath of the "religious right". Below is an article I wrote for the SF Chronicle taking them on. It was written before Arnold was elected and I like to think his election definitely supported my Thesis:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...8/ED172871.DTL

Surprisingly, after reading my article and seeing the error of their ways, instead of turning the party over to me they shot back with articles like this:

http://www.sffaith.com/ed/articles/2003/0303gn.htm

Thus the fight continues. But I am just warming up. Now that SlaveNoMore is going to help me, they are in big trouble.

Shame on You
 

Before I answer this, let me know if you're going to have trouble with an arbitrary line qua arbitrary line.

Work in Progess
 

Damn their torpedoes, and full speed ahead!!!!

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Find me where DeLay said his concern about the Schiavo case is with making absolutely sure they respect what she would have wanted.

I'll wait here.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Find me something that indicates that the complete uncertainty of this issue isn't driving the Schiavo saga.

Find me anything that even suggests that this would be controversial if she had filled out the form, or if family members hadn't so strongly disagreed on what she wanted, or if the initial factual determination had been the result of a fair and well-argued debate.

I'll wait here.

(ETA - Oh, like heck I will. It's past midnight.)

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I will concede that many people reasonably doubt that Terri Schiavo would have wanted to have her feeding tube pulled in these circumstances; will you concede that Tom DeLay appears not to have been motivated by these considerations? I criticized DeLay, not everyone supporting the parents.

(And I appreciate your parallel construction, but even if I felt otherwise, what would I be searching the web for? Evidence of what would have happened if the facts had been different all along?)

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

John Ashcroft and the United States have challenged up to the Supreme Court Oregon's law that allows doctors to administer lethal doses of painkillers to terminally ill patients who wish to end their lives. If the United States is making a facial challenge to such a law, it means that the federal government takes the position that even in instances where someone expressly wants to die and has jumped through whatever stringent procedural hoops the state has established, it is still not enough.

And, no, I don't buy the distinction between administering drugs and removing a feeding tube is irrelevant for these purposes--some people will continue to make it politically controversial for someone who wants to die by anything other than "natural" causes.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Yep. Criticize away at Delay, but for deserved things. I think there's no lack such as would justify pulling this thing with his father into it all.

If that's what's needed to support your simile, yes. Sort of your burden of choice.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

uhhh, Dimwit. She's braindead. We can't know what she wanted. Maybe that's what caused the reaction.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Why not? Seems far more relevant than Bush's signing the Texas bill. This isn't simply supporting a restriction on abortion rights when your daughter had an abortion--it's his advancing legislation specific to one person to revisit a question that he and his family answered in regard to his father.

ETA: And I don't buy the line drawing that Delay's dad needed a ventilator whereas this is "just" food and water. How the mechanical administration of air is different from the mechanical administration of food/water is beyond me. Nor is the distinction between a "chance to live" any different--the evidence that Schiavo will never recover is no less overwhelming than that confronted by the Delays (who apparently didn't even wait 15 years to give dad a chance to live).

In the end, one can leave the decision to the family or one can leave the decision to the state. Delay ws happy with teh former for himself, but not for Schiavo.

I think they just miss Dan . . .
 

"Amber alert: Missing Headline

All units, all units: Be on the lookout for a headline reported missing from the mastheads of America's newspapers.

The missing headline, "130 Terrorists, Car Bomb Factory, Captured near Kerbala," was last seen in a Reuters wire report carried on an ABC news outlet in Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...3/s1332013.htm

The missing headline may be seen with the following lede:

"Two days ago, Iraqi security forces captured 130 terrorists, tons of explosives, and three fully-assembled car bombs outside the Shiite city of Kerbala."

This headline is currently missing from the archives of the New York Times' website.."

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/w...ext/index.html

The Times did, however, find room to run a story on a mistaken gunfight between Iraqi soldiers and police officers, which killed three.


http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2005/03/...-headline.html

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Could be, but this is simply an indication that you need to raise your threshold. No, apparently, (bad pun?), his father answered that for them. How come everyone likes to simply meander past this main point?

Again, strawmen.

Hail to the Chief
 

More evidence that it'll be Prez Hillary in 2008:

"Half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and nearly half of those are terminated," Clinton said. "Making contraception more accessible and affordable is critical to reducing the number of unintended pregnancies."

Smartest way to appeal to both sides of that particular fight I've seen. Others have certainly tried, but she seems to be saying the right things in a better way.

(Just so there's no question: I don't like her. I just think she's inevitable.)

Tyrone Slothrop, raging hypocrite.
 

You think that even the easier standard of proof required (to show what Teri would have wanted) was not met. i.e., there is reasonable doubt whether Teri would have wanted her tube pulled. In light of this, I think it's fucked up that you are criticizing Bilmore and such.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Uh, no. If she were brain dead the stem would be gone too and it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Because the situtation was the same: no living will; an "expression" of desire to family members. If you want to argue about the strength of teh evidence, fine, but since you've been saying "sign the paper" for the last week, Charles Delay's failure to do so should have the same repercussions, no?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I was right about Friday at around 3:00. I was wrong about the patient. We removed the vent from my great-uncle a few weeks ago and were waiting for the old man's friend to come and take him. He aspirated on the feeding tube and died on Friday.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Don't get technical with me. You and I could discuss this but it would go over the heads of Ty and them. What I meant was she can no longer express her wishes. And Burger- there was no disagreement as to Delay Sr. wishes amongst his family, was there?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Apparently not, but is that a relevant distinction if your concern is hearsay and strength of evidence? Is 5 people repeating the same hearsay more reliable than one? Maybe they're just agreeing to off the old coot?

Tyrone Slothrop, raging hypocrite.
 

Naw, that's just what we do.

Shame on You
 

To the contrary. I have no problem at with an arbitrary line. For instance, I draw mine at death.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Do I have to google the quote about this being an attack on the Republican majority and on Tom Delay, or do you remember it?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

It is a bit unseemly to drag a family's gut-wrenching end of life decisions into the public arena, isn't it?

Even if they are already public, it is a bit unseemly to shove one's nose in and use them to score political points, isn't it? As Tom has sowed, so shall he reap.

I wonder why you think that the religious fundamentalists whom Delay and Bush (x2) are sucking up to on this issue would really care what the patient wanted. That isn't the point for most of them -- as a matter of doctrine it is irrelevant.

S_A_M

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

That's the problem with letting the "pull the plug" decision to be made based upon anything other that a witnessed document. But apparently we do.

That's not really your question, though. You ask the hypo; "If Delay lied about his father's wishes and pulled the plug to 'off the old coot'- is his behavior in the present case hypocritical?"

Let me extend an olive branch of agreement with your hypo.

Hail to the Chief
 

That's a whole lot like what Bill used to say.

S_A_M

Hail to the Chief
 

Bill wasn't for contraception- he was more an advocate of the pull out technique.

Tyrone Slothrop, raging hypocrite.
 

What I was trying to say is that many of those who are siding with her parents are not acting in bad faith, and that there are things said in the media that might lead someone to reasonably question what her husband has done. In other words, I don't necessarily question the motives of everyone who reaches different conclusions about the case than I have.

DeLay, on the other hand, seems to have been suggesting to political supporters in recent days that she should be kept alive without regard to what she would have wanted, a view inconsistent with how he and his family dealt with his father's situation. I question DeLay's motives. He is a political opportunist.

If everyone approached these questions as bilmore does, the conversation would be a very different one. Where bilmore goes most wrong, IMHO, is in suggesting that Tom DeLay and others are thinking about the case like he is.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I don't know if you even need to introduce lying into the hypo (even though I did). Seems to me that there's not necessarily a justification for deferring to a unanimous family when one won't defer to a split one. Sure, there are probably fewer errors if multiple members of the family agree as to the patient's "wishes", but I'm not sure that the error rate is sufficiently low that we can draw a line between the two.

That said, in the end, neither DeLay nor his family made any extensive efforts to determine dad's wishes, other than a "yeah, that's what he wanted" nod of agreement. They didn't appoint a guardian ad litem; they didn't get a court order; nuthin'. Meanwhile, DeLay says that Schiavo not only has to go to court, he has to fight the question in the state courts, then the federal courts, and then some more in the state courts. The level of treatment for fairly similar situations is too dissimilar to call him a man of principle.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I remember the whole quote, unlike the people here who saw fit to quote selectively. It was far less egregious than presented. Do you remember that whole quote?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

As long as you're willing to concede that you think he's a shit, and thus any smear that can be found is fair game even though it has nothing to do with the Schiavo case, I'm happy.

Hail to the Chief
 

He served two terms, and I bet he could have won a third.

Hail to the Chief
 

Obviously you don't understand how the Religious Right thinks. Anything that involves contraception is a non-starter for them.

135 dead insurgents? 85? 11?
 

This raid? Turns out there were some initial problems with the reporting.

Hail to the Chief
 

I think our next few elections are going to be determined by the Great Boring Middle, not the Committed Outliers. The Great Boring Middle will be perfectly happy if people use condoms and don't get pregnant and have abortions. It's a win-win.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I remember reading it independently of what was posted here at the time. I don't recall anything he said that in any way undercut the fact that he was trying to make it out in some measure as being about him.

*sigh*
 

"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture," he said, adding that the school board's declaration is just a first step.

Once upon a time "intelligent, educated" wasn't an insult.

*sigh*
 

You have to wonder if the person who said that stammered at the end and said " no . . . wait . . . I mean . . . "

One would at least hope so.