Shame on You
 

Hey, anyone up for some grave desecration tonight?

No win situation
 

The only state that seems to have confronted any of tese issues is Oregon. I suggest moving there, and then leading a movement to secede from the union.

Shame on You
 

Three unrelated points:

(a) While the ultimate result is the same, I do see a difference between "kill her" and "let her die." I understand that many people don't.

(b) The biggest problem in this case is with the humanity, not the procedure. That problem lies on both sides of the fight.

The conflict has reached this point because, for whatever reason, the Schindlers and M. Schiavo absolutely can't get along or agree on almost anything related to Terri. I'd expect that they've rather hated each other for some time.

If they didn't hate each other they could have worked _something_ out -- such as Schiavo letting the parents feed and water and care for her unknowing body into eternity while they continue to pray for a miracle -- or the parents letting her go -- or the parents (if they were the least bit rational) agreeing with Schiavo on yet another course of various tests to ascertain/verify her true condition and _act accordingly_. Apparently neither side could do it.

Given the failures of humanity involved, the legal system had to apply the rules of procedure to decide which side "won." I tend to believe that it probably made the right decision, and in any event did the best job it could. Don't blame the procedure or its application. The people involved -- all of them -- are to blame. As you reap, so shall ye sow.

(c) Key qualifier -- "of the Dems who voted."

S_A_M

No win situation
 

You might wait for the Supreme Court to decide the Oregon case this term before you start selling things to move there.

Just When I Thought it Couldn't Be Sadder
 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/25/schiavo/index.html

Excerpts:

" A Florida state judge will rule by noon Saturday on a motion filed by Terri Schiavo's parents, who contend that their brain-damaged daughter has expressed the wish to live.

"She managed to articulate the first two vowel sounds, first articulating AHHHHHHH and then virtually screaming WAAAAAAAA," the motion said.

"The incident happened in the presence of Schiavo's sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, and an aunt, the motion said. "

S_A_M

Shame on You
 

What people don't understand is - its my party - they just have temporary control.

a new presidential portrait
 

The latest presidential portrait added to the White House collection

http://www.lawtalkers.com/clintonportrait.gif

Shame on You
 

If you could accelerate eviction proceedings, it would be appreciated in many corners.

Just When I Thought it Couldn't Be Sadder
 

I anticipate stigmata pre-ruling.

Shame on You
 

Vacationing with her?
http://www.filmwise.com/invisibles/i.../image_06a.jpg

Shame on You
 

Its happened before

Ellen Sandweiss circa 81


http://www.autographsuccess.com/ellen_sandweiss.jpg


And today

http://www.ladiesoftheevildead.com/Ellen1.jpg

Grover Norquist, man of principle.
 

"Advocates of using federal power to keep this woman alive need to seriously study the polling data that's come out on this."

linky

Grover Norquist, man of principle.
 

Guess what? Public opinion was strong for Dr. K. too! I can tell you where to find him all day every day if you have any questions for him.

• Do you favor or oppose the idea of allowing physician-assisted suicide for people who are physicially suffering, or terminally ill, but mentaly capable of requesting help to die?
  
  
  All Men Women
  Favor 63% 68% 59%
  Oppose 33% 28% 37%
  Undecided 4% 4% 4%

http://www.freep.com/suicide/index6.htm

Grover Norquist, man of principle.
 

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Ty's point was that removing the feeding tube is popular -- I think that his point was that a "man of principle" wouldn't care what the polling data says.

eta that I really don't know why I felt the need to post this. Ty is perfectly capable for speaking for himself. But instead of deleting this, I will leave it up as a reminder to myself that I have been spending way too much time here lately.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Hi RT!

Turns out that Tom DeLay's family, including Congressman DeLay, let his father die rather than take extraordinary measures to continue the life of the brain-dead man in 1988.

• When the man's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do Not Resuscitate."
  
  * * * * *
  
  There were also these similarities [between the elder DeLay and Terri Schiavo]: Both stricken patients were severely brain damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without continuing medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared life sustained by machine. And neither left a living will.
  
  * * * * *
  
  "Daddy did not want to be a vegetable," said Skogen, one of his daughters-in-law at the time. "There was no decision for the family to make. He made it for them."
  
  The preliminary decision to withhold dialysis and other treatments fell to Maxine along with Randall and her daughter Tena -- and, his mother, said, "Tom went along." He raised no objection, she said.

LA Times

I bet Tom was sad there weren't a lot of Congressmen lining up to help his family make that decision.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Now you're just into unseemly, let's-demonize bullshit. Wonder what would have happened if there wasn't agreement among the survivors about their dad's condition? Do you think that might be a rather significant difference between the cases? Do you care, as long as you can post shit critical of Delay? You're starting to rank right around the anti-Hilary socks.

On a happier note, Elder Law has a good article on why Living Wills don't work, and how a good DPOA is much better.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Are you pretending that Tom DeLay has adopted your philosophy (i.e., the brand of utilitarianism that posits, who cares what they would have thought -- keep 'em alive if it makes any of the survivors happy)? 'Cause that's not what his family said: "Daddy did not want to be a vegetable." That sounds dangerously like they were trying to respect his wishes. Unlike what Majority Leader DeLay has said about the Schiavo case.

And I'm not interested in posting shit critical of DeLay -- I'm interested in currying favor with RT. If I have to post pictures of vibrators made out of precious metals, God help me, I'll do it.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I'll make you guys a deal. For every dollar you contribute to any decent contender to beat mayor Richard M. Daley of Chicago (i.e., this excludes any offspring of Jesse Jackson), I will contribute one point five in the next election to the contender of your choice to beat Delay.

1 is the leader of the third most populous city in America, and connected to the leadership of your party for a good part of the last 12 years. The other is a pompous windbag pretender elected by nobodies from nowhere.

1 is killing a city. The other is only killing his own soul.

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Yes, this was coming through.

Sorry, bad pun.

In other news - Is this libel (against Blake, not the jurors)?:

"Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. Steve Cooley said jurors who acquitted actor Robert Blake of the murder of his wife are "incredibly stupid" and insisted his office put on a good case.

"Quite frankly, based on my review of the evidence, he is as guilty as sin. He is a miserable human being," he said."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...ck=1&cset=true

Any real litigator knows it works this way . . .
 

"A Florida lawyer writes:

"I have been following the case for years. Something that interests me about the Terri Schiavo case, and that doesn't seem to have gotten much media attention: The whole case rests on the fact that the Schindlers (Terri's parents) were totally outlawyered by the husband (Michael Schiavo) at the trial court level.

This happened because, in addition to getting a $750K judgment for Terri's medical care, Michael Schiavo individually got a $300K award of damages for loss of consortium, which gave him the money to hire a top-notch lawyer to represent him on the right-to-die claim. He hired George Felos, who specializes in this area and litigated one of the landmark right-to-die cases in Florida in the early 90s.

By contrast, the Schindlers had trouble even finding a lawyer who would take their case since there was no money in it. Finally they found an inexperienced lawyer who agreed to take it partly out of sympathy for them, but she had almost no resources to work with and no experience in this area of the law. She didn't even depose Michael Schiavo's siblings, who were key witnesses at the trial that decided whether Terri would have wanted to be kept alive. Not surprisingly, Felos steamrollered her.

The parents obviously had no idea what they were up against until it was too late. It was only after the trial that they started going around to religious and right-to-life groups to tell their story. These organizations were very supportive, but by that point their options were already limited because the trial judge had entered a judgment finding that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to live.

This fact is of crucial importance -- and it's one often not fully appreciated by the media, who like to focus on the drama of cases going to the big, powerful appeals courts: Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact).

In this case, the trial judge simply chose to believe Michael Schiavo's version of the facts over the Schindlers'. Since there was evidence to support his conclusion (in the form of testimony from Michael Schiavo's siblings), it became nearly impossible for the Schindlers to overturn it. The judges who considered the case after the trial-level proceeding could make decisions only on narrow questions of law. They had no room to ask, "Hey, wait a minute, would she really want to die?" That "fact" had already been decided.

In essence, the finding that Terri Schiavo would want to die came down to the subjective opinion of one overworked trial judge who was confronted by a very sharp, experienced right-to-die attorney on one side and a young, quasi-pro bono lawyer on the other."

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2005/03/i...iavo-case.html

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

Even you must see this is a critical difference. You do see it don't you?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

I invented this....

Any real litigator knows it works this way . . .
 

That's right. Blame the lawyers. And throw in a side of judicial incompetence.

Not that the observation about the effect on appeals is inaccurate.

can't or won't?
 

Take note of this phrase for these are the words, this is the question that will haunt Governor Jeb Bush for the rest of his political and natural life. Even more tragic for the innocent patriots of this land who survive this moral catastrophe and carry on in Terri's memory is that we know that because the answer truly is "won't" that this man's moral failure will result in the election of Hillary and the downfall of the American Republic and freedom as we know it.

JEB, YOU COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING, YOU COULD SAVED A LIFE!! YOU COULD HAVE ERRED ON THE SIDE OF LIFE!!! May God have mercy on your cowardly soul this Easter.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...an_flsn108.jpg

JEB, you have turned your back on God and the founding fathers!

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends (to preserve and maintain the people's God given rights), it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." -Tom Jefferson

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."- Ben Franklin

"Evil law is no law at all."- St. Augustine

"After all, the practical reason why, when the power is once in the hands of the people, a majority are permitted, and for a long period continue, to rule, is not because they are most likely to be in the right, nor because this seems fairest to the minority, but because they are physically the strongest. But a government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it. Can there not be a government in which majorities do not virtually decide right and wrong, but conscience?—in which majorities decide only those questions to which the rule of expediency is applicable? Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right."-Henry David Thoreau

She too shall rise to her glory
 

As sad as this most glorious and holy day has become, we should all steady ourselves with the reality that like her lord, Jesus, the innocent Terri will be rewarded with the gift of the afterlife in God's kingdom of heaven, unlike her murderers.

Listening to the Gospel over the last several days in Church I was struck with how similar Terri's execution is to the Crucifixion and further, pray that the days following her passing will be filled with a realization of what we have done similar to that which occured in the holy land those two millenia ago, when after the Christ had arisen and the masses reflected and realized "Oh God! What have we done? what have WE done!?!? We have brutally sinfully crucified the son of God!!"

This same thunderous realization will occur in the days and weeks to follow across this once great nation on a shining hill, when the liberal death mongers return their mundane business of mocking the President's tax policy or social security and the majority of the American people in the heartland reflect on what our nation has REALLY done here. Slowly, brutally, barbarically torturing an innocent young woman to death and using the imperial judiciary to mock and taunt her grieving family.


1 Corinthians 15
51: Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
52: in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53: For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54: When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55: “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

Greer and Felos and Whittemore et al. will feel that sting! The eternal abyss is a bleak reality too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...RNE/Easter.gif

Shame on You
 

The court decided what she wanted. Not what her husband wanted. Not what her parents wanted. Not what that lying, ass-fucked piece of shit Tom Delay wanted (don't get mad at me, Bilmore, he's the one who decided to make it about him).

Thec ourt found that, based on the best evidence, she would not want to be maintained in a persistent vegetative state. The courts of Florida found that to be the case. The federal courts were persuaded that was her wish.

The rest of use should all stay the fuck out of it. You keep making it about her husband v. her parents. It's about what she wanted.

Shame on You
 

You, too are missing the point. The court decided what Terri's wishes were. I repeat, what TERRI'S wishes were.

If people would stop ignoring that fact, this whole thing could just die and be buried. Like Terri.

Shame on You
 

So then, if I get this correctly, people have rights, the brain dead are chattel? Now that is an enlightened position.

Shame on You
 

And that confirms my earlier thoughts. As if there could really have been any doubt after you referred to her as "sushi." Tell, Bilmore, at what point in the life cycle do we cease to have rights?

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

It would be a difference if the court had found that Michael Schiavo wantd her to die instead of him finding that she did not want to be kept in a persistent vegetative state.

Shame on You
 

Exactly, the corrupt incompetent deathwhore greer decided, based on incomplete evidence and hearsay to substitute his amorality for the true wishes of someone who never communicated them.

Greer seems like a bloodthirsty savage, hellbent on executing this poor young woman with no due process for her at all.

And thus we are left with the "order" of the imperial judiciary.

Well, when it comes time to pay the piper, "orders" don't always hold as a defense in the face of what everyone knows is the truly righteous moral position. The excuse of just following "orders" was not too convincing to those who presided over the Nuremberg tribunals and it will be found to be just as as morally void by He who judges Greer, Felos, Schiavo and there accomplices when that righteous Day of Judgment comes.

In the meantime it seems as if 10 year old children have more courage of their morality than Jeb Bush, the pontious pilate of this passionate play.

the Modern Day Mark 15:12-15 would read:

12 "What shall I do, then, with the one you call Terri Schiavo?" Jeb Bush asked them.

13 "Starve her!" the Imperial leftwing Judiciary ordered.

14 "Why? She is an innocent helpless life?" asked Bush.

But the Imperial Judiciary, bolstered by the support of its leftwingdeathcult and media allies, ordered again and again and again, all the more emphatically, "Starve her to death!"

15 Wanting to appease the Imperial Judiciary, Bush abdicated his authority to save Terri. He stood by, actionless, as the Judiciary had Terri starved and dehydrated.


http://www.iol.ie/~hlii/images/Jesus_wept.jpg

What I don't get about the trial court's decision is if there is any doubt shouldn't you err on the side of life? If she didn't write down her wishes, then the fact that she wanted to die comes from hearsay. And this type of decision is important enough that it should be written down, otherwise you can't be sure that the person that made such a decisions gave it much thought. Certain agreements have to be reduced to writing to be valid because they are so important - this seems to me to fall into that catagory. If you err on the side of life you can always change that decision if further evidence arises. But if you choose death, if further evidence arises you can't go back. And why is her husband spending so much time and energy getting her put under? If she is a vegatable and can't feel a thing (if starving to death doesn't cause her pain) then clearly living won't cause her pain. Especially when her family is so dead against it.


On another note, as Free Terri demonstrates, the Evangelicals are a fickle mistress. Jeb and the rest of the Republicans whipped them up and now the beast has turned on them. I don't think Jeb saw this coming. I think Jeb figured he could reap tons of political capital (money and precinct walkers) for his stand on this. I think that Jeb knew that the courts would overule him and so he had nothing to lose. I think once the courts had made their decision Jeb thought that the evangelicals would think he had done all he could. He didn't think they would want him to break the law. As a moderate Republican I can tell you once the Evangelicals direct their hate at you all reason is lost. After primaries they get so angry when the moderate Republican wins that the take the moderate down in the general so the democrat can win. They do this out of pure spite and emotion. They did that to Brooks Firestone in Santa Barbara. Jeb pissed of the majority by getting involved and now he has pissed off his base by not going all the way. The evangelicals hate half measure more than no measures.

shouldn't you err on the side of life?
 

regardless of your blasphemously derogatory view of people of faith, who far outnumber the unfaithful, I will respond and note that it was Tom Jefferson who said, "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."

The people don't seek to have Jeb break the law, rather to uphold the legitimate object of government. he had the power he abdicated. A wimp. Much like his dad. Thankfullly that gene skipped over W.

And it looks like the end is near for Terri. According to reports they have started to administer morphine. I guess morphine is necessary due to the painless humane form of execution that Greer, Felos and the Adulterer are using. Why not a bullet to the head?

based on this picture, starvation does look to be humane:

http://www.hooverdigest.org/024/images/patenaude2b.jpg

The mouth would dry out and become caked or coated with thick material.
The lips would become parched and cracked.
The tongue would swell, and might crack.
The eyes would recede back into their orbits and the cheeks would become hollow.
The lining of the nose might crack and cause the nose to bleed.
The skin would hang loose on the body and become dry and scaly.
The urine would become highly concentrated, leading to burning of the bladder.
The lining of the stomach would dry out and the sufferer would experience dry
heaves and vomiting.
The body temperature would become very high.
The brain cells would dry out, causing convulsions.
The respiratory tract would dry out, and the thick secretions that would
result could plug the lungs and cause death.
At some point within five days to three weeks the major organs, including the
lungs, heart, and brain, would give out and the patient would die.
Brophy v. New England Sinai Hosp., 398 Mass. 417, 444 n.2, 497 N.E.2d 626

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

You're saying you don't believe the evidence about what Schiavo wanted, whereas the reporter believed what the DeLays said?

shouldn't you err on the side of life?
 

I have never been derogatory against people of faith. I have just been deragatory of people like you. You do not represent all people of faith. As a Christian, and a person of faith, I can tell you that you do not represent me. Generally, I prefer that people who represent me to know the definitions of the words they are using. I know it is fun to use "big words" but you should really consult a dictionary before doing so.

Thomsa Jefferson, who you like to quote, was a Deist and not a Christian. He thought most of the New Testament was mythology and created his own Bible (often referred to as the Jefferson bible) that deleted all references he thought were untrue - including the Virgin Birth, the Healings, the Resurrection. John Adams and Alexander Hamilton both thought that Jefferson was really an atheist, and for that reason, they thought he was unfit to be President. Jefferson was not an Atheist or Agnostic, he did believe in God, but he believed in the Deist watchmaker theory - God created the universe but after he did so he does not interfere at all with his creation. Jefferson thought there was no evidence to support that God was involed in our lives. Just thought you should know you were quoting a blasphemer.

You may think that is the legimate act of government, but if you want him to ignore a federal or state court order, he would be breaking the law. He may not be breaking God's law, but he would be breaking the law of the Country. And why do you give W a pass. He could federalize the national guard and have the tube reinserted. If he really wanted to.

The trial court made the finding by clear and convincing evidence. Of course, you can question what the standard of proof should be in this type of case, or in any case. But this same group of people hardly gets so anguished when a murderer is convicted based on only circumstantial evidence.

shouldn't you err on the side of life?
 

It’s sad to see such moral weakness in someone who has exhibited some proclivity to making sense. A rare and valuable currency in this chat group. If you don’t realize that Jeb had a duty to enforce the laws of Florida and those laws give him the authority, without prior judicial review, to go in and rescue this girl from abuse then you too have been dazed into paralytic stupidity by the cult of death of the left. Those state laws were Jeb’s to enforce, and W had to leave his baby brother to fend for himself, while he saves the other 300 million of us from the radical Islamics and the catastrophe of socialistic despair of the failed Social Security system.

Sadly, without nitpicking, this battle is over. The death and despair promoted by the democrats has won the day. I truly hope the champagne that some here will surely be sipping when Terri’s heart gives out is tinged with the bitterness of accomplicity to murder. With this battle over, the war for life will wage on. As with Dred Scott which was its generation’s Imperial Judiciary’s answer to equality for all, where the Republicans were forced to go to war to prove protect life and freedom, now when the Democrats seek to misdefine the start of life in order to support legalized killing of baby human beings, and fight to define when life ends so they can capriciously snuff it out, the Righteous Right of this once great nation will step up to the plate and do battle with Death's forces. The slope is slippery with the blood of the innocent but with the protections of the Second Amendment on our side, we will not be daunted (unlike the cowardly Bush).

And now I bid you adieu as I go to a special candlelight vigil my church is having to celebrate life and protest its disrespect in Pinellas Park, Florida. Happy Easter everyone! God bless Terri, the Schindlers, and the faithful who support them!



http://www.cogforlife.org/terri.JPG

shouldn't you err on the side of life?
 

It's not abuse if she didn't want to live in a permanent vegetative state like this, Sockman, and apparently she didn't. If she had wanted to be kept alive in this state, I think we all agree that she should be, and that even a Republican government should collect more taxes to pay for it to happen.

shouldn't you err on the side of life?
 

Sockman told me he was done here; he was ready to leave. He wanted his spectre to leave also.

You, accusing each new GGG sock of being Sockman frustrates his wishes. First by keeping Sockman "alive" when he wants to be dead. By worse by exposing the new people to this sock as what Sockman is. I knew Sockman, and these socks are no Sockman. For the love of all that is good, please let Sockman die.

edited to let Sockman die -- t.s.
Like if P. were here he'd do like this-

Here's Bill Bubba's statue at his library

http://www.hot-blooded.com/Clinton/CMEMOR1.gif

Tom DeLay, raging hypocrite.
 

There was a controvery about Schiavo since there was a conflict about what she wanted. Delay Sr.- no controversy. That is different Ty. Can you explain all the ways?