Perverse incentives.
 

You mean increasing the incentives, right?

Credit Cards
 

In addition, the Dems proferred amendments that would have amended the bill to exempt veterans, active-duty troops, senior citizens and families facing unexpected medical bills, but these were rejected.

I myself certainly don't give any credence to any reports that the votes on the amendments were accompanied by laughter, hoots and/or catcalls from the Republican side of the Senate.

Credit Cards
 

Apparently, there are solid gold fixtures in a lot of the homes in River Oaks due to the oil bust in the 80s and the ensuing desire to get as many assets into the homestead as possible.

Credit Cards
 

This was one of the only bright chapters in the birth of this bill. Just what we need - let's start exempting our pet groups from provisions. I vote to exempt lawyers who wear flannel shirts. Hank wants to exempt old hippies. Ty says that Ward Churchill should be able to file 7 whenever he wants.

It would be better to simply set up a fair and workable solution for all, rather than to set up crap, and then vote to make people we like avoid the crap.

Credit Cards
 

uh, yeah. What isn't a giveaway in washington these days? It's a bailout to bottom-feeding CC cos.

There will be a painful transition, and then ultimately a new equilibrium with the extension of even more credit to less creditworth people, who still are able to meet the requirements of the bill, and we'll go through this again.

Credit Cards
 

And who was the guy that tried to claim an office building as his homestead?

Credit Cards
 

Isn't there a provision that requires you to have owned the home for 40 mos. to shelter it? Obviously you can gold plate your interior, but you can't run out to buy a new gold-plated home, as a number of people do right before filing.

Credit Cards
 

Or, as here, to disseminate the crap equally.

I'll admit, this equanimity on the part of the Senate, to pound it home to all of these groups like Dole on Levitra instead of choosing not to go down the road of a bad bill in the first place, was a proud moment.

Credit Cards
 

Frist waggling his ass over the top of his Senate desk and taking a shit at the notion was more problematic, though. Evidence, you know.

Credit Cards
 

I'm OK with not exempting any particular groups. One would think the number of our armed forces bravely risking their lives overseas who will be fucked by this bill would maybe make it less attractive, but apparently no.

So what do people think of the paycheck-advance lending places that have effective annualized interest rates of over 100% and are frequently clustered right outside of military bases (and in poor areas)?

Perverse incentives.
 

Or lessening the disincentives. Good catch.

Perverse incentives.
 

I was confused and not sure I was getting your meaning.

Credit Cards
 

Try over 500%. Loan sharks don't charge as much vig as these leeches.

Credit Cards
 

Wait. Are you sure that annualized rates are really material terms?

Credit Cards
 

I'm just thankful we've always got bankruptcy to fall back on.

Credit Cards
 

Why not look at it? It's an enlightening way to compare this type of credit to other types of credit. I know they don't keep the debt for years, but the longest I've ever had credit card debt was for like 4 months so annual rates are sorta meaningless in my situation, too.

Credit Cards
 

Shoot Fringe, you should just say something if you're short- I'll wire you some $$$.

The job took a big chunk out of the paycheck for uniforms again?

Credit Cards
 

And these leaches don't charge as much as H&R Block on the RALs

Credit Cards
 

I'll admit it - I'm short. Can you send a few Benjamins? God Bless. Have a nice day.

Credit Cards
 

Does this mean you're wiring Sidd $$$ too?

Credit Cards
 

2. Hank, help a sista out?

Credit Cards
 

Club -- I find it remarkable that you can support policies which have the admitted effect of permitting large companies to (for want of a more sophisticated analogy) make a living by anally raping boatloads of people and then oppose disclosure requirements, etc. which would help some of the folks to see the big penis coming.

[I'm talking about -- for example, requiring the disclosure of the effect of only making minimum payments, etc.]

[ETA: (Since Gatti liked the analogy). And you're also supporting legislation which makes it harder for those people to disengage while bruised and bleeding, gather their torn clothes, and limp away, until after the large companies have achieved their full measure of satisfaction.]

I find it most remarkable that you justify this laissez-faire attitude with a philosophy of individual responsibility -- while seeming to find no corresponding need for any sort of enforceable corporate responsibility. (Talking about the policing effect of the "market" is nonsense -- the information and bargaining power are not even.)

It is most ironic that you deride efforts at consumer protection as being motivated by an inappropriate paternalism or condescension. It cold comfort to desparate people if the government refuses to help them -- or the law facilitates their screwing because: "We thought you were smart enough to figure it out yourself."

Name Dropping
 

I am still in therapy over that. I still trying to regain my self respect.

Credit Cards
 

No, no. Sophistication aside, this analogy is apt.

Name Dropping
 

I think that is a fair description

Credit Cards
 

Concentual sex is not rape, no matter how rough it is.

No one is forcing borrowers to sign up for credit cards or borrow money beyond their means.

Credit Cards
 

It will restrict the exemption in certain circumstances -- if it passes and is signed by the president, one won't be able to get the full homstead protection (in bankruptcy) on the gazillion dollar house one bought the day before one filed one's petition.

Credit Cards
 

On this, I agree somewhat. People love to bitch and moan about the credit card issuers, but there are a lot of them in a competitive market. If you don't like their rates (or NFL team on the card), go to another one.

Credit Cards
 

And no one is forcing credit card companies to gamble on bad credit risk borrowers, either. But since sub-prime lending is already the most profitable niche in banking, and will only become more so after the bill is passed, I guess I will buy me some stock in one of those payday loan places. Pity the car title loan places all shut down around here.

Credit Cards
 

My new career is buying homes before they go into forclosure. I find people who are upside down on their homes, then negotiate with the banks to reduce the loans so the people are not upside down anymore, and then buy the house. This way they can avoid forclosure, save their credit, and use the remainder of the proceeds for a down payment on a new home.

Most of the lower income people I work with are facing forclosure and bankruptcy because of divorce, medical problems, and job loss. I would say in 90% of the cases what has happend is beyond their control. I think the bankruptcy laws, as they are, are really important for these people, and lets them get a new start. The credit card company's know full well what they are getting into when they lend to these people and don't need any protection from these low income people. I am sorry but Citibank is not being abused by these people.

However, the system is really abused by the higher income people. I work with people all the time on higher end homes where they use the bankruptcy system to screw their creditors when they could pay them back. All sorts of creditors are getting screwed by wealthy people under this system. There has to be a way to change the system, but make a change where it only affects people in the higher income brackets.

I don't understand the bills going through, but from my experience I just think the people in the lower income brackets need to be exempted but the wealthier people need to be stopped from abusing the system just because they don't want to pay their bills.

Credit Cards
 

Why have bankruptcy at all, then? You don't get into bankruptcy unless you take on debt, right, so we should never allow it for anyone.

Seriously, the problem here as I see it is mainly one of motivation for the bill, as well as some of the particulars.

There are a number of possible balances one could strike as to how easy/hard bankruptcy should be. Obviously it can't be too easy, because then the lenders disappear. At the same time, it's somewhat desirable to allow it in certain circumstances, because otherwise people will be very reluctant to take on any debt (also a problem for lenders), because of the risk of massive debt problems (which, you need to realize, quite often come from unexpected events, such as massive medical bills or unemployment, not simply lots of HDTV purchases). Getting it right is difficult.

The problem here is that congress decided to alter that balance at the behest of cc cos., who had decided they needed to be stopped before they sinned again. They promoted easy consumer debt, but didn't like the fact that easy consumer debt means a number of uncreditworthy consumers got too much credit and, later, too much debt. So they're trying to bar the door after they screwed up. Maybe making bankruptcy harder is a good thing; maybe a bad thing--it's hard to say. What's easy to say is that the motivation for this bill has nothing to do with whether bankruptcy is too easy or too hard, just that it's too common as a result of cc overindulgence.

Meanwhile, making it worse, congress decided to except from the new restrictions, (for lack of a better word) the rich. Rich people are far better positioned to take advantage of the loopholes; meanwhile, the poor, who are much more likely to need the advantages of chapter 7, are stuck like a canoist in Deliverance. Donald Trump is a bigger abuser of bankruptcy than the average consumer--but what are the chances he won't be able to go through it just the same again?

Credit Cards
 

I don't think that works so well if you already have $5000 on your Raiders MBNA, don't like the fees they're jacking on you, and you want to flip to Cap. One. Cap One says you're already beyond your credit capabilities, so suck it.

Credit Cards
 

Yet, "Fuck 'em," while both a clear and handy ideological point of reference for one's political philosophy, carries dangers when articulated too clearly.

Kudos to you for your candor, at least. Would that your GOP representatives would be the same; instead, they're forced to rely on the cries of sympathy for the plight of mom and pop credit companies, and feigned outrage for phantom "bankruptcy queens" to make it through the day.

Me, I plan to buy stock in the nascent industry of private debtors' prisons which soon will be filled with boatloads of Americans whose genes you feel are deficient. Get in while you can, Club - the market for these will be hot.

Credit Cards
 

Personally, I'd just buy stock in Providian--they've clearly figured out how to market their "credit" products to those just barely able to afford them.

Credit Cards
 

You know, I understand that various people here know various permutations of groups of other people also here, and I understand that sometimes it's easy to forget, when you're talking over drinks, what's out and what's not, but, dammit, this was private.

Credit Cards
 

Let me be clear. I am not supporting or objecting to this particular bill. I'm just objecting to the "credit card companies are evil" "innocent borrowers need protection" bullshit being peddled around here. Frankly, I don't see a need to reform the BK laws. They seem to be working fine as is.

Credit Cards
 

I don't think a kayak is really a "boat," but I could be wrong.

Spankme, this bill does the opposite of what you seem to think should be done. I can't remember if you were defending the bill or not because now I get you mixed up with club. One of y'all needs to move, or get a color avatar, or something. Maybe seem taller. Anyway, everyone on both sides of the aisle on here who has said what this bill is doing (rather than what they think it should do, or asking questions only) has made it clear that it makes it harder for people who are genuinely financially fucked, and not really much if any harder for people who are actually pretty well-set financially but are abusing the system. So one would think you could come out and say that the bill seems to be a bad one. But that may be beyond your shill-for-the-R-party capabilities.

Credit Cards
 

You opted for those fees when you signed up for the card. If they jacked the fees after you had a balance, there's a problem that ordinary principles of contract law ought to (but may not) address.

Credit Cards
 

When I got out of law school with a little less debt than that, I just threatened MBNA that I'd transfer somewhere else. They dropped my rate immediately.

Credit Cards
 

Coltrane, you were still a damn good credit risk, for chrissakes.

What I like is that if you keep all your debt but one absolutely current, but fall behind even one or two payments on one debt (no matter how small), they will jack up the rates on all of your debt -- even when it's with other companies. No, this has not happened to me personally, but I have seen the provision in my cc "agreements" (aka adhesion contracts, sorta kinda, yes, I'm exaggerating) and it is my understanding that the provisions is used regularly.

ETA to Ty -- Oh, yes, they can and do jack up the fees/rates after you have a balance. What, you didn't read your agreements in detail? Shame.