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-   -   Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661)

Sidd Finch 04-04-2005 11:20 AM

Everything is our problem
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
The united states, having its economy intertwined with every other economy in the world, has a strategic interest everywhere in the World. The more stable the world is the better for us. We have a strong interest in all countrys being Democratic and free market economies. The more stable and prosperous the rest of the world is the more prosperous we become.
True.


Quote:

Obviously our interest in Sub Suharan africa is less than other countrys because their economies are so small.
See my other post. South Africa has a significant economy. And we look to any number of Subsaharan countries for oil -- including Angola, a very fragile state that is also threatened by instability in the region.

Quote:

Yet a properous and stable Africa would benefit the United States.
True. And let me note that it appears that China has figured out the benefits of working in Africa. Sadly, they aren't that selective about the regimes they work with (but hey -- it's China. It's not like they'll reject governments for slaughtering their citizens, y'know?).


Quote:

And interventions are not that costly.
Um..... I remember hearing this one oh, say, a little over two years ago. Intervention is cheap! Iraq will pay for the occupation itself! $200 billion and 1600 American lives later.....

And let's not forget that intervention itself can lead to more instability, as long-simmering ethnic and political rivalries are suddenly able to be expressed when dictatorial power is removed. I'm not sure that this would happen in Zimbabwe -- the Shona and Ndebele are not comparable to the Hutu and Tutsi in any real sense -- but still. One needs to think of these things.


Quote:

There is just no excuse for ethnic cleansing and genocide when the United States has twelve Carrier groups.
Agree. But the country really needs to be behind it and, somehow, I question whether that will happen.

Gattigap 04-04-2005 11:25 AM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The post you cited is factually inaccurate and reaches conclusions that are ridiculous in light of the fact that he shredded the documents.
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Good rewrite. "Reframing the issue", of sorts.

He took five sets of identical (almost!) docs. Each set had circulated to different groups of people for review and comment, and so each set had a bunch of different handwritten notations all over them. He looked at the five sets, carefully destroyed three sets with his scissors, and then returned two sets.

Gee. Think it was the report body he was concerned with?
Good lord, fellas. Put down the thumbscrews (don't worry, you can use them in a minute) and go back and read:
  • "Readers with clearances respond to Berger case. Earlier today, I asked for feedback about whether Sandy Berger's behavior is as baffling to those with security clearances as it was to me. Several people responded, and a few have agreed to let me post their perspectives anonymously.

    Reader J:

    Responding to your question, and having held Top Secret clearances now for the last six years, I am at a loss to explain what Berger was thinking. The GOP charges that Berger was engaged in some type of cover-up are difficult to believe -- the 9/11 Commission had full access to the Clarke report that Berger purloined -- it did not need the National Archives copy. That report was fully referenced in the final Commission report. If Berger did all this to cover something up, he is more stupid than criminal.

    I have heard the following explanations:

Despite assumptions, you're not reading a NYT Op-Ed piece. You're reading responses of other folks with security clearances who don't know Berger, were apparently written at about the same time as these news reports showing more details about what Berger did, and are speculating why Berger would do something both illegal and so profoundly stupid.

Your complaints of (1) AAAAaaugggh! they're getting facts wrong!! and (2) aaaauggh!! they're reframing the issue!! are fine as far as it goes, but that wasn't the point.

Ok, that's it. Here ya go!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...humbscrews.jpg

sgtclub 04-04-2005 11:29 AM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Good lord, fellas. Put down the thumbscrews (don't worry, you can use them in a minute) and go back and read:
  • "Readers with clearances respond to Berger case. Earlier today, I asked for feedback about whether Sandy Berger's behavior is as baffling to those with security clearances as it was to me. Several people responded, and a few have agreed to let me post their perspectives anonymously.

    Reader J:

    Responding to your question, and having held Top Secret clearances now for the last six years, I am at a loss to explain what Berger was thinking. The GOP charges that Berger was engaged in some type of cover-up are difficult to believe -- the 9/11 Commission had full access to the Clarke report that Berger purloined -- it did not need the National Archives copy. That report was fully referenced in the final Commission report. If Berger did all this to cover something up, he is more stupid than criminal.

    I have heard the following explanations:

Despite assumptions, you're not reading a NYT Op-Ed piece. You're reading responses of other folks with security clearances who don't know Berger, were apparently written at about the same time as these news reports showing more details about what Berger did, and are speculating why Berger would do something both illegal and so profoundly stupid.

Your complaints of (1) AAAAaaugggh! they're getting facts wrong!! and (2) aaaauggh!! they're reframing the issue!! are fine as far as it goes, but that wasn't the point.

Ok, that's it. Here ya go!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...humbscrews.jpg
Well what was the point? Or do you just like posting things that add nothing to the debate?

Gattigap 04-04-2005 11:51 AM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Well what was the point? Or do you just like posting things that add nothing to the debate?
Admins and Mods:

If the above does not become the board motto -- with Club's name firmly attached to the quote -- then there is no God.

***

Club, the point, albeit a minor one, was speculation as to why Berger would do something so profoundly stupid. The writer suggested that part of it may be the hubris that affects ex-head honchos, which I found interesting, especially since -- as the writer pointed out -- Berger has guaranteed that he'll never work in government again. It appears that you do not. Though my wound is deep, I will accept this and move on.

I shall work hard to raise the level of analysis and value of my future posts, led by your example.

Shape Shifter 04-04-2005 12:08 PM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Admins and Mods:

If the above does not become the board motto -- with Club's name firmly attached to the quote -- then there is no God.

***

Club, the point, albeit a minor one, was speculation as to why Berger would do something so profoundly stupid. The writer suggested that part of it may be the hubris that affects ex-head honchos, which I found interesting, especially since -- as the writer pointed out -- Berger has guaranteed that he'll never work in government again. It appears that you do not. Though my wound is deep, I will accept this and move on.

I shall work hard to raise the level of analysis and value of my future posts, led by your example.
I hear that once you get used to it, it's really not that bad.

http://www.torturamuseum.com/images/boia.jpg

taxwonk 04-04-2005 12:24 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
If your child was kidnapped by two people, and the police caught one, who had information which could bring your child back alive, would torture not be justified?
No. And I can't believe you're really having this mucvh trouble understanding this. At this point, I have to believe you're trolling.

sgtclub 04-04-2005 12:56 PM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Admins and Mods:

If the above does not become the board motto -- with Club's name firmly attached to the quote -- then there is no God.

***

Club, the point, albeit a minor one, was speculation as to why Berger would do something so profoundly stupid. The writer suggested that part of it may be the hubris that affects ex-head honchos, which I found interesting, especially since -- as the writer pointed out -- Berger has guaranteed that he'll never work in government again. It appears that you do not. Though my wound is deep, I will accept this and move on.

I shall work hard to raise the level of analysis and value of my future posts, led by your example.
Right, but as Bilmore and I originally pointed out, the speculation was based on bad facts, so it wasn't very valuable.

sgtclub 04-04-2005 12:57 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
At this point, I have to believe you're trolling.
I had let the debate drop. Ty brought it up again. Perhaps it's Ty that's the troll.

Shape Shifter 04-04-2005 01:02 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I had let the debate drop. Ty brought it up again. Perhaps it's Ty that's the troll.
Why let it drop? I think "Torture Advocate" would make an interesting line item on your resume. Good conversation starter.

sgtclub 04-04-2005 01:04 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Why let it drop? I think "Torture Advocate" would make an interesting line item on your resume. Good conversation starter.
Apparently that title is already taken by Gonzales

Replaced_Texan 04-04-2005 01:06 PM

Good news from Chicago
 
Governor signs emergency rule to require pharmacists to fill prescriptions quickly, and if they've got a moral problem filling the prescription, hand it off to someone else in the pharmacy to fill it.

Tyrone Slothrop 04-04-2005 01:14 PM

More on Burger (Sandy That Is)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Admins and Mods:

If the above does not become the board motto -- with Club's name firmly attached to the quote -- then there is no God.
N.B. -- Only admins can change the board motto (as opposed to the name of the thread).

Tyrone Slothrop 04-04-2005 01:16 PM

Good news from Chicago
 
If you have a moral problem filling a prescription, shouldn't you have a moral problem handing it off to someone else in the pharmacy to fill? Shouldn't you tell the customer that the factory stopped making the medicine, or something?

Hank Chinaski 04-04-2005 01:22 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Why let it drop? I think "Torture Advocate" would make an interesting line item on your resume. Good conversation starter.
You should put "apologist for massive UN diversion of funds to Annan family" on your resume- might help you get a job in compliance at worldcom or some such

Shape Shifter 04-04-2005 01:25 PM

So Peggy Noonan agrees with me . . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
You should put "apologist for massive UN diversion of funds to Annan family" on your resume- might help you get a job in compliance at worldcom or some such
That's a little wordy, and you're supposed to use action words on resumes. Maybe I'll just put down "America Hater."


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