Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Why? Why is torture morally wrong and dropping bombs on cities, even if every attempt to minimize collateral damage is made, is not? What is the difference?

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

This is the most constructive thing you've ever posted here. Would you be willing to move to No. Va.? I think you've a future in Covert ops.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

So, we're to adhere to your principle, even though the price to be paid for that adherence won't be paid by you at all, but by the lives of hundreds, or thousands, or more, of other people. It's painless for you, they're all dead, and you get to feel all clean and good and moral.

Seems like a very hollow nobility to me.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

I'm already there. We're watching you, Chinaski.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Well, do a better job than you guys did on that WMD thing.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Well, for one thing, we can't avoid fighting wars. We can, and by law are required to, avoid deliberately inflicting pain on specific individuals in an effort to coerce them to divulge information.

Let me repeat this. Torture is unlawful. It is prohibited by the laws of the United States. It is prohibited by international law. It is prohibited by the Constitution. Engaging in acts of war, if properly sanctioned, is lawful.

As I noted before, there is no point in getting into the moral aspects with you, as you are apparently not equipped to recognize them.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

There have been no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil by Chinaski since 9/11. And you can't really blame us for his posts.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

It's not my principle. It's the principle on which this nation was founded.

And I'll take my hollow nobility any day over your "shit happens." You sit here, safe at home, and pretend that it's okay for us to play God and choose who will live and who will die, vainly believing that you have the power to determine the fate of "hundreds, or thousands, or more."

Seems like a hollow being to me. Devoid of soul, conscience, and compassion. And I'm not being at all partisan.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

But if you had the stones to torture him I bet you could make him stop.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Shape Shifter tortures me over and over, and its had no effect- you guys are right. Remember I was a supporting player in the Slave Sagas

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Well, y'know. Omelettes, eggs, and all that.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

You are doing a bait an switch. The only thing we are talking about is the morality of the issue. The legality of the issue is not in question.

We can certainly avoid fighting wars. The French have done it through history.

I think you don't want to talk about the morality of the issue, because you cannot rationally distinguish killings or other brutal acts as part of war, on the one hand, and torture, on the other hand, other than by pointing to what is currently "legal."

It seems to me that what we have done in the case of war is to engage in a balancing test, where we have determined that the horrors and evils we inflict are outweighed by the benefits. I am only suggesting that the same anaysis should be done for torture. I can see no other rational weigh to distinguish among these horrors.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Michael Corleone: My father is no different than any other powerful man, like a President or Senator.

Kay: Michael, do you realize how naive you sound. Presidents and Senators don't have people killed.

MC: Who's being naive Kay?

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

You haven't been watching TV, have you?

There are groups of people out there who are looking to kill huge swaths of other people for various perceived indiscretions, like not following the right nutjob's version of what some god told him we should all do, or not willingly granting supreme authority over all to the whacko leader they've chosen for themselves. We've stepped in to slow that killing down. The "power to determine the fate" of tons of people is derived from whatever power we can muster to stop those whackos and nutjobs, and I can testify that that power is there. "Vainly"? Right. You're like Adder, standing firm that Saddam and his ilk constituted inconveniences to some people.

So, when we try to stop these killers, are we playing god? Does that fit your definition? Do you perceive that everything we do to try to stop these killers is somehow morally equivalent to the actions and motivations of these killers? If you want to talk about soul, compassion, and conscience, and have people keep a straight face around you, consider that what we're doing ranks far higher on the moral scale then the actions of the Baathists trying to re-seat the murderous dictatorship, or the mullahs looking to rule by their personal vision of gawd, or the simple murderous thieves taking what they can because they can. If that concept staggers you, then your answer to Club about there being no point of communication is right.

Ty- now is it a scandal?
 

Uh . . .